Botched snack sticks, need guidance

[thekid1877]

First post, long time scroller. Made a 25lb batch of jalapeno cheddar snack stick yesterday with elk and had fat out, which I know is from too high of temp. I guess I’m looking for advice on my set up and process. The ration was 70/30 in 17mm casings. I have a MES40 that I just retro fitted with a auber WS1510 PID and the auber circulating fan. I did a trial run with the PID and some bricks. Determined that it didn’t need further programming out of the box, holding temps with 1 degree with little or no overshoot. I have the probe positioned an inch or so under the bottom of where the top rack would be, on the right side. Sticks are hanging in the smoker with racks removed. This was my first run with the new set up but my third attempt at snack sticks. First batch of sticks with the stock MES40 turned excellent but haven’t been able to recreate. My process is based off of a post by BGKYsmoker:
130-2 hrs
140-2.5 hrs
150- 2.5 hrs
160- 2.5-3 hrs
170- 3-4 hrs
Target IT 149-152
I have the PID programmed for all the above steps. I loaded up as many sticks as I could, about 20lb and let it rock and roll. I didn’t check temps until, maybe the end of of 160 steps, as it was ramping up. I knew right away I had fat out. Temps were mid to upper 160s. I know they got too hot but not sure where my error was. Should I have started checking around 150 degree? I thought I read fat out doesn’t happened until temps are over 170? I’m also wondering if my probe placement was an issue? I think auber recommends in the top 3rd of smoker? They are still edible but costly mistake. Wishing I started with a smaller batch. Any advice, tips, insight is appreciated. Thanks

 

[indaswamp]

You cooked them too long... especially at 165 and 170*F. Smoke the snack sticks @ 120-130*F pit temp. for 1-2 hours to get some smoke on them, then you can ramp up to 140*F for an hour, then 150*F for an hour. Once the INT reaches 136*F and stays that or above for 30 minutes, technically they are done. If you want to dry them out more, best to paper bag them (or wrap with butchers paper for a 25# batch) and put them in the fridge. Flip the bag every day for even drying. Dry to your liking, then you can cut and package. Also, pics. would help...

 

[indaswamp]

20# in a MES 40 is a lot of thermal mass inside. Back when I had my MES 30, larges batch I could smoke at one time was 12.5#....so do the math for a MES 40...

 

[thekid1877]

Thanks for the advice. Thermal mass never crossed my mind. I had to do two batches anyways, so I’ll be sticking to 12lbs or less from here on out. Also will be experimenting with the butcher paper, instead of vac seal and freezing right away. I’m throwing the remaining 5lbs in the smoker this morning. Going to start at 120 and ramp up to 150 and make smoke starting at 130. Here’s some pics of the failed batch.

 

[chopsaw]

If you want to try to plump them back up , put some water in a pot , and bring it to about 180 degrees . NOT a boil .
Dip the sticks in for 90 seconds or so . Try it with a few to start . May or may not happen because it looks like some fat out .
I like them shrunk up myself , and I even further dry them in butcher paper in the fridge .
I'm with Keith on the cook time and temp , but they don't look bad really .

 

[thekid1877]

Chopsaw, thanks that sounds like a great idea. I’ll experiment with a few this afternoon. They taste fine, I guess it’s more of an eating experience thing. The casing on a lot sip off while eating and some have large pockets of fat on the outside, giving them a greasy feel. Maybe the hot water bath would melt off some of that exterior fat? Was thinking I would strip of the casings on the worst of them when I package them, since they slip so easily.

 

[zwiller]

I agree on that was a big load and long time. Not aware of anyone else using a fan so you're kinda on your own with that. If it's like an oven (convection) the temps and time are pretty well affected so you might need to reduce 20-30% somehow.

 

[chopsaw]

some have large pockets of fat on the outside, giving them a greasy feel. Maybe the hot water bath would melt off some of that exterior fat?

Yeah , that will help or fix that . That's the main reason for doing it , but it also plumps them back up . Just 60 or 90 seconds at around 175 / 180 .
It's not real technical , just a guide line . Just don't boil or further cook them .

 

[GatorAGR]

Those look like they'd eat good enough for me. Better to have fat out on sticks than sausages I guess. Agree with the advice above.

 

[Winterrider]

Did you actually verify your PID pit temps with a digital thermometer? PID controller may need some calibrating, it may have been running hotter than anticipated.
They look good though, I would put a few of them away.

 

[thekid1877]

Thanks for all the help everyone! I did have another probe in yesterday reading the smoker temp and it was +/-5 degrees or so of the PID. It is a cheaper wireless thermometer but figured the PID was accurate. The fan kit I came across on aubers site when I was shopping for the PID. I initially thought it wouldn’t hurt and would help even out the temp in the smoker. It’s a metal squirrel cage type fan. I guess I never thought of it in terms of a convection oven. Maybe I should keep if off on the next batch? The hot water trick worked like a charm. Although the casings on most scrunched up at the ends, so I’m in the process of taking the casings off. If feel a lot better today about the situation, after talking to you all and getting some solid advice. In the end they still taste good.

 

[hondabbq]

You cooked them too long... especially at 165 and 170*F. Smoke the snack sticks @ 120-130*F pit temp. for 1-2 hours to get some smoke on them, then you can ramp up to 140*F for an hour, then 150*F for an hour. Once the INT reaches 136*F and stays that or above for 30 minutes, technically they are done. If you want to dry them out more, best to paper bag them (or wrap with butchers paper for a 25# batch) and put them in the fridge. Flip the bag every day for even drying. Dry to your liking, then you can cut and package. Also, pics. would help...

I have been taking my sticks to 150 ish since I learned how to make them years ago.
I read on these pages to take them to that temp.
It only has to be 136 and held for an hour to be "cooked"?

 

[zwiller]

I initially thought it wouldn’t hurt and would help even out the temp in the smoker. It’s a metal squirrel cage type fan. I guess I never thought of it in terms of a convection oven. Maybe I should keep if off on the next batch?

Not saying the fan is a bad thing. Auber people are pretty sharp and I know for a fact the pro smokehouses use them. I looked a LONG time at convection ovens before deciding on buying one and it is well understood they run "hotter" as the fan keeps the temps far more even so like I said 20-30% hotter and faster is the common thought. You just need to factor that at into account.

In the end they still taste good.

WINNING!!!

 

[indaswamp]

I have been taking my sticks to 150 ish since I learned how to make them years ago.
I read on these pages to take them to that temp.
It only has to be 136 and held for an hour to be "cooked"?

Per USDA regs. on pasteurization. once internal temp reaches 136*F and is held for 22 minutes, you have reached a LOG5 reduction in pathogens (that's 1 with 5 zeros behind it.). And it is safe to eat. Longer time held at temp., higher reduction in pathogens. 1.5 hours is about LOG9 reduction. At 150*F, LOG5 reduction occurs in 52 seconds. Both are safe. more moisture loss cooking to 150*F which is why commercial processors pasteurize at a lower temp in a steam bath with liquid smoke. Higher water retention in the links= more profit.

DaveOmak thread:
https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/pasteurization-times-and-temperatures.302750/

 

[hondabbq]

Per USDA regs. on pasteurization. once internal temp reaches 136*F and is held for 22 minutes, you have reached a LOG5 reduction in pathogens (that's 1 with 5 zeros behind it.). And it is safe to eat. Longer time held at temp., higher reduction in pathogens. 1.5 hours is about LOG9 reduction. At 150*F, LOG5 reduction occurs in 52 seconds. Both are safe. more moisture loss cooking to 150*F which is why commercial processors pasteurize at a lower temp in a steam bath with liquid smoke. Higher water retention in the links= more profit.

DaveOmak thread:
https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/pasteurization-times-and-temperatures.302750/

Ty for the explanation.
Much appreciated as usual.
I love this place.

 

[JckDanls 07]

My last batch had fat out too... I peeled all the casings off and washed the fat off with warm water... Just had to be gentle without any casings...

 

[zwiller]

indaswamp Spot on.

Do note there is a difference in texture and mouth feel in those temps. 150F is firm and chewy whereas 136F is looser and softer. No right or wrong here just preference. I prefer the higher temp.

commercial processors pasteurize at a lower temp in a steam bath with liquid smoke. Higher water retention in the links= more profit.

I am sorta playing with this now. I use a water pan with a moisture wicking towel draped inside to increase humidity in the smoker. Have not measured it but am lead to believe is near 100%. It's pretty obvious tho as it does generate steam. Added bonus is that smoke deposition increases with humidity. Maybe not a big deal for you on the bayou tho First product I ran was a loin and was kinda shocked how different it was all things being the same. Darker but also different in other ways. Seems more dense and yeah, it kinda oozed out juice when cut. All that was a first.

 

[indaswamp]

DaveOmak use to close the vent dampers down all the way (with no smoke) to spike humidity in the cook chamber to force the sausages INT rise faster, and retain moisture in the links. I now do this as well....no evaporative cooling effect so INT rises faster.

 

[indaswamp]

Also, trichinosis parasites are killed at 136*F.....so this is important when smoking wild game.

 

[Fueling Around]

It happens ... to all of us whether the others admit it or not.
I usually give away most of my failures. The recipients sure appreciate them though.
Stop over at roll call and introduce yourself.

Roll Call

This is where all new members should begin. Tell us a little about yourself, where you live, what you do, etc. Just helps us get to know you better;-)

www.smokingmeatforums.com

Not saying the fan is a bad thing. Auber people are pretty sharp and I know for a fact the pro smokehouses use them. I looked a LONG time at convection ovens before deciding on buying one and it is well understood they run "hotter" as the fan keeps the temps far more even so like I said 20-30% hotter and faster is the common thought. You just need to factor that at into account.


WINNING!!!

Good catch on the fan in the smoker Sam.
Uh convection usually doesn't run hotter. It transfers heat faster meaning the stuff in the oven or smoker heat up faster at the 20-30% rate you mention. I've noticed my pellet pooper is up 50% faster depending on the cut of meat. Think air fryers, too. The circulating air is how they cook faster

Rick BGKYSmoker put a circulating fan in his dog house smoker.
Hopefully tagging him will get a reply on the results on the smoking event.