Wet vs Dry, for Salmon. Fresh vs frozen

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brayhaven

As I stated above, each has his own technique.  Six hours is a mighty long time in the smoker.  Are you making jerky?  As for desalinating, unless you are curing the fish for extended storing, why brine it then immediately remove the salt?  Don't know how one would control the salt content accurately.  If you intend to keep your fish for a extended amount of time, I would suggest canning it.  That is a whole new game though as different techniques are used when canning fish.

Again, I can't over state the importance of a salameter, they are an inexpensive and valuable tool when brining.  Fish salinity should be in the neighborhood of 70% - 80%  strength @60°.  At this strength both you and your doctor should be delighted.

Tom
 
Thanks cmayna and bear.

I understood that freezing fish or 3 - 4 weeks would kill any parisites.  But Bear just made the penny drop for me.  If fresh fish, always go to 160*.

As far as wet brine vs. dry brine, I can't see much difference in texture.  So I'll probably go back to wet brining.  It took as much time to form pellicle using dry brine as it did wet brined.  And dry brining seems to be wet brining, after a few minutes anyway.  LOL

------------------

Huh.  I seem to not have posted this when I thought I did.  Not my first time.  I'm not used a saved draft thing.  It cool though.
 
Success at last!

I think my problems with pellicle was too high of temps too quick, while smoking last year.

I started this batch at 72* Ambient temp inside smoker,  with only smoke generator going, and then gradually adding heat over time.

I only reached 200* area the last 20 or 30 minutes, and would have preferred it to only reach 180*.  I pulled fish out at 142* IT.

Right off the smoker it was good, but pellicle seemed hard and tough as ever, and skin still wouldn't peel off without taking meat with it.

Cooled a couple of hours on racks at room temp and placed into zip bag.  Left zip bag open, in fridge.  A little condensation had formed.

Day 2. Same results as to pellicle, and skin.  Sealed zip bag up.

Day 3.  Wonderful!  Pellicle broke very easily  (It looks in photo, thicker than it actually was for some reason.)    It was very thin.


After looking this photo, I had to check my thumbnail.   Nope.  No yellow!  LOL 

I guess the camera picked the fish color underneath.

and the skin came off completely meat free!


PS:  Don't be too quick to toss the skin in the trash.

Just fry it on medium heat, pressing with a fork.  Flip it over when it releases from pan, and press with fork or spatula again.  And guess what?

You have salmon skin chips 1000 times better than potato chips.  LOL

Now mind you, this is my first success with the pellicle thing, but I hope to duplicate again very soon.

I'm so happy with this batch now, that my family will suffer.  

I promised them some smoked salmon at our family Thanksgiving dinner this Saturday.  I've already ate about half of it!  LOL

I would like the inside flesh a "little drier", but still without a tough pellicle.  

Should I leave it the medium low temps longer for that? Maybe 125* to 140* for an hour or more. before boosting temps to achieve more drying without the tough pellicle?

Or would leaving longer starting at very low temp, and maybe taking 5 or 6 hours to reach IT of 140*-145*  produce a drier flesh, but still thin pellicle?

Thanks to you all, I'm getting there!

You've no idea how much I appreciate your input over the last year.  You people, and this forum, is a God Send to us newbies!

I've smoked ribs, roast, bacon, ham, hocks, & brisket.   But my greatest challenge has been those stupid salmon.

I really appreciate your help and bearing with me and my goofy, to you, questions.
 
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Congrats.  It looks fantastic.  Like anything else it take time plus trial and error.

To answer your last questions, what species Salmon are you working with? That might be the reason why the meat is so wet inside.  For King or Silver,   I typically start out at 125 for and hour, bump to 135 for another hour,  bump to 150+ for another hour.  Then I start checking the IT.
 
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Frank,

I don't know if this will help you, but below is the smoking temp schedule I used on a batch of Tilapia & small Brook Trout.

I had left the skin on the Trout, but not the Tilapia, and the outside surfaces didn't get too terribly hard.

However----My MES doesn't allow as much air flow as your smoker might allow.

8:00--------Pre-Heat Smoker to 120˚.

8:15--------Put in MES 40, with bigger pieces on #2 shelf, and smaller ones on top shelf.

8:30--------I filled my old prototype AMNS with Hickory & lit both ends (I want these good & smoky).

8:45--------After a nice pellicle is formed I put my AMNS on the bars of my MES 40.

10:30------Smoke was a bit too heavy, even for my taste, so I put the one end out.

11:00------Bump heat up to 140˚.

1:00--------Bump heat up to 160˚.

2:00--------Bump heat up to 180˚.

3:00--------Bump heat up to 190˚.

4:00--------Removed smoked fish when all pieces were over 140˚ internal. Some were up to 158˚.

Allow to cool awhile, and put in fridge until next day for eating & wrapping.

Bear
 
 
brayhaven

As I stated above, each has his own technique.  Six hours is a mighty long time in the smoker.  Are you making jerky?  As for desalinating, unless you are curing the fish for extended storing, why brine it then immediately remove the salt?  Don't know how one would control the salt content accurately.  If you intend to keep your fish for a extended amount of time, I would suggest canning it.  That is a whole new game though as different techniques are used when canning fish.

Again, I can't over state the importance of a salameter, they are an inexpensive and valuable tool when brining.  Fish salinity should be in the neighborhood of 70% - 80%  strength @60°.  At this strength both you and your doctor should be delighted.

Tom
Thanks Mr. T,  Not making jerky, but the thin part of the filets do get pretty dry. :o)   How long do the others on here smoke their fish??  I think the only way to really check the salt content of the fish, as far as how it will taste... is to taste it :o).  I'm an old water treatment chemist and can test the brine for chlorides down to parts per million, if I thought that would be the answer, but the only thing that counts is how it tastes.  (IOW, "the proof is in the pudding")  The first batch I threw away, the second, was too salty, but edible (with plenty of beer ;).  I'll just brine it and adjust the taste with soaking as some seem to do on this forum.  I'm not quite ready to  give up yet.  I think with those thin filets, that have been frozen and soak up water like a sponge, I might be able to use a more dilute brine and shorter brining time,to get the less salty flavor I want without having to soak it.  Some here apparently always soak and change the water in the soak a time or two. I appreciate your input.. and othehrs who have had the same problems. This is the only thing I've had trouble smoking...
 
 
Frank,

I don't know if this will help you, but below is the smoking temp schedule I used on a batch of Tilapia & small Brook Trout.

I had left the skin on the Trout, but not the Tilapia, and the outside surfaces didn't get too terribly hard.

However----My MES doesn't allow as much air flow as your smoker might allow.

8:00--------Pre-Heat Smoker to 120˚.

8:15--------Put in MES 40, with bigger pieces on #2 shelf, and smaller ones on top shelf.

8:30--------I filled my old prototype AMNS with Hickory & lit both ends (I want these good & smoky).

8:45--------After a nice pellicle is formed I put my AMNS on the bars of my MES 40.

10:30------Smoke was a bit too heavy, even for my taste, so I put the one end out.

11:00------Bump heat up to 140˚.

1:00--------Bump heat up to 160˚.

2:00--------Bump heat up to 180˚.

3:00--------Bump heat up to 190˚.

4:00--------Removed smoked fish when all pieces were over 140˚ internal. Some were up to 158˚.

Allow to cool awhile, and put in fridge until next day for eating & wrapping.

Bear
How is that Tilapia, Bear?  The varmits are all over here in FL,  We broiled one once but didn't care for it.  But a lot of fish are good smoked that I don't much like broiled.  I see they serve it at Red Lobster.  Used to get it from the cast netters here for a quarter a pound.  

Greg
 
 
How is that Tilapia, Bear?  The varmits are all over here in FL,  We broiled one once but didn't care for it.  But a lot of fish are good smoked that I don't much like broiled.  I see they serve it at Red Lobster.  Used to get it from the cast netters here for a quarter a pound.  

Greg
I only had a few small Brookies, so I threw some Tilapia Fillets in with them just as an experiment.

I was very surprised---They were very good----Not much different than Salmon, and a whole lot cheaper if you have to buy the Salmon.

IMO Salmon & Trout bigger than 18" are ONLY good smoked. Small Trout (under 18") are good, made just about any way.

Here's that Step by Step with the Little Brookies & Tilapia:

Smoked Brook Trout & Tilapia

Bear
 
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Thanks Mr. T,  Not making jerky, but the thin part of the filets do get pretty dry. :o)   How long do the others on here smoke their fish??  I think the only way to really check the salt content of the fish, as far as how it will taste... is to taste it :o).  I'm an old water treatment chemist and can test the brine for chlorides down to parts per million, if I thought that would be the answer, but the only thing that counts is how it tastes.  (IOW, "the proof is in the pudding")  The first batch I threw away, the second, was too salty, but edible (with plenty of beer ;).  I'll just brine it and adjust the taste with soaking as some seem to do on this forum.  I'm not quite ready to  give up yet.  I think with those thin filets, that have been frozen and soak up water like a sponge, I might be able to use a more dilute brine and shorter brining time,to get the less salty flavor I want without having to soak it.  Some here apparently always soak and change the water in the soak a time or two. I appreciate your input.. and othehrs who have had the same problems. This is the only thing I've had trouble smoking...
brayhaven,

The length of time a product is smoked depends on many factors such as the product being smoked, the type and amount of wood, the temperature of the smoker and product along with the color and density of the smoke itself.  A light smoke can be applied for much longer periods than a more dense smoke with the same results.

Being a scientist a can imagine you didn't guess the amount of chlorine you  added to water.  Same would apply here if you want consistency after you find what you like.

I like to make the process as simple as possible, therefore after brining and air drying to create the pellicle with no soaking, the fish is smoke cooked at one temperature, 200° using a moderately dense smoke.   Once the internal temp of the thickest cut reaches 140° the smoker temp is lowered to 140°.  Because my smokers are well insulated, carryover will take the fish IT to 145° or just above.  By the time the IT of the fish starts to lower the desired holding time of 20 minutes is reached and the fish is done and allowed to cool before packaging and refrigerated or frozen.  This is usually achieved in the 1 to 1 1/2 hour range depending on the thickness of the fillets.  The result is a moist flaky snack food that can be used in many recipes.  This technique easily allows the ability to do several batches in one afternoon.

It will be helpful to try and smoke the fish that is the same thickness as the times will be different.  If you don't already have one, I would suggest getting a Thermopen digital instant read thermometer as you can measure the internal temp of a 1/4 inch fillet with it. A remote thermometer will also keep you from having to open the smoker to take the temp reading.

Hope this helps answer some of your questions.

Good luck,

Tom
 
cmayna and Bear,

It was a king.

Yes it was very moist.  I doubt the low temp at the beginning hour or so hurt anything.  I was basically cold smoking for an hour or so before raising my temps to 100* and then 140*.  I think the moist flesh was from raising the temps to quickly above 160*, and reached 200*-216* and IT was reached too fast before it had time to dry a little more.  I'd like to keep it under 200* if I can, but that's not always possible with this unit.

What are your thoughts?
 
 
cmayna and Bear,

It was a king.

Yes it was very moist.  I doubt the low temp at the beginning hour or so hurt anything.  I was basically cold smoking for an hour or so before raising my temps to 100* and then 140*.  I think the moist flesh was from raising the temps to quickly above 160*, and reached 200*-216* and IT was reached too fast before it had time to dry a little more.  I'd like to keep it under 200* if I can, but that's not always possible with this unit.

What are your thoughts?
I agree-----Low & slow & long is for "hold-in-your-hand" snacking Salmon.

If I was going to smoke Salmon for Dinner, I'd get some smoke on it, and jack the temp up higher & faster to make the flesh moist & flaky for eating with a fork on a Dinner plate with Taters & sides.

Bear
 
Yes, high temp cooking or smoking will not give enough time to dry out the meat as one sees when eating what we define as typical smoked Salmon.  Instead the meat will be as Bear noted  "moist & flaky for eating with a fork".
 
Thanks cmayna & Bear!

I know you guys use different smokers than I am, but you are still helping zero in on success. 

For that, I thank you!  <fpmich tips his hat>

Bear question, I think I noticed that you spent more time at lower temps, and more time in smoker over all, with the Brook Trout & Tilapia, than you do with Salmon.  Is that because they were thinner than a salmon piece, or some other reason?  Or just the way it went that day?

Question #1 - for all to respond to.

As for tough pellicle (which hopefully I've solved by lower cooking temps)  am I better off splitting the fillets lengthwise, into thinner (belly) and (back) thicker portions?  I know that's probably a yes answer, because of thickness difference.  

Question #1 A -    BUT... am I better off leaving the separated, but long, lengthwise fillets whole, & cutting into portions after smoking, or cutting into portion size before brining and smoking.

Question #2 - for all to respond to.

If you cut thin (belly) parts off to smoke separately, but can't get another good smoking day for a week or so, is it okay to re-freeze.   Or will that be too much damage to fish?

_________________

I will be doing another salmon (2  full fillets worth) later today (Sunday) and smoking on Monday.  

I'm doing a wet brine this time (to compare with my 1st dry brine attempt),   My biggest worry is wind on Monday.  May be above 15-18 mph.  I always add 5 to 8 mph to forecast, because they are no smarter then us. <grin>

Last smoke was a perfect day.  Outside temps in mid 60's to start, & breeze at 3 -5 mph.

I plan on cold smoking longer than just an hour or so,  maybe 2-3 hours, before adding any heat.  What do think Wade?

Hopefully I can get heat up to 120-125* with first try.  Then try to gradually increase it to 165* and leave fish in that temp range longer than I did before.  And then increase temps higher( hopefully under 190*) until I reach 140-145*, and still end up with an acceptable tender pellicle at end.. 

Wish me luck! 

If this duplicates what I just smoked the other day, but with better texture/dryness and still a thin pellicle, I will be a very happy camper!

(Believe you me, this smoke will have many more notes in journal to myself, than usual this time.  LOL)

I will report back in thread with results.

-----------------------------

Just incase anyone thinks my questions and post are not well thought out, this one took me over two hours to type.

It's my thoughts that are not organized.  I'm not a read and type quick guy anymore, it seems.  I type like I cook.   Slow.  HA!

My Mom's half brother told my youngest brother, when he visited him in hospital shortly before he died.   Uncle Cecil said: "Oh, your Mom is a wonderful cook!  But LORD, is that woman slow!"  See?  It runs in the family.
 
 
Thanks cmayna & Bear!

I know you guys use different smokers than I am, but you are still helping zero in on success. 

For that, I thank you!  <fpmich tips his hat>

Bear question, I think I noticed that you spent more time at lower temps, and more time in smoker over all, with the Brook Trout & Tilapia, than you do with Salmon.  Is that because they were thinner than a salmon piece, or some other reason?  Or just the way it went that day?

Wish me luck!
When I did that "Smoked Salmon" Step by Step, I was using my MES 30, and it was before the invention of the AMNS.

In order to get the thing to smoke I used to bump the temp up often, and open the door to drop the temp, so I could make the heating element come on long enough to make the wood chips smoke.

When I did the "Tilapia & Brookies" Step by Step, I had the AMNS, so I could just set my heat when & where I wanted it, because the smoke was taken care of perfectly by the AMNS.

I like to cut my fillets into portion size pieces before brining & smoking, and I brine the thinner ones for shorter times. I also put the thinner ones on the top smoker position, because that rack doesn't get as hot as the others.

Good Luck, Frank!!

Bear
 
Frank,

As Bear does, I always cut the Salmon filets to serving size before brining.  Meaning the average filet is about 2.5" - 4" wide.   And yes depending on how thick it is will dictate how long to smoke.  Thinner pieces on top rack with monsters at the bottom. 

Let's see some pics.
 
Life interferes sometimes.  This in one of those times.   So today I am going to smoke cheese instead of fish.

I wasn't able to get my fish brined last night,

so will have to wait until either Wed, or Maybe Fri or Sat to smoke.  Bummer. 

Placed thawed fillet (whole) in bottom crisper of fridge at 33*-34* to hold.  Will cut and add to brine tomorrow, in case Wed is a good day.

If Wed is not, then I will wrap them and leave, already brined, until weekend.  If weather is not good then, I guess I will have to have baked salmon to eat immediately.

Bear, I noticed that you use a 1 to 1 ratio salt to sugar plus some soy.  Not being sure of how much salt is in soy, I can't really know your ratio.

But I'm sure it brings it to more than 1 sugar to 1+ salt.  Isn't it salty?  Most brines I've found for dry brines is 4 to 1 sugar to salt, and a lot of wet brines are from 4 to 1, down to 1 to 1, sugar to salt.

Does using more sugar retain so much moisture that it gives you a too moist smoked fish, rather than drier, but still moist fish?  And maybe longer shelf life?

  And could using 4 to 1 sugar to salt, be adding to my pellicle problem I've been fighting.?
 
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Bear, I noticed that you use a 1 to 1 ratio salt to sugar plus some soy.  Not being sure of how much salt is in soy, I can't really know your ratio.

But I'm sure it brings it to more than 1 sugar to 1+ salt.  Isn't it salty?  Most brines I've found for dry brines is 4 to 1 sugar to salt, and a lot of wet brines are from 4 to 1, down to 1 to 1, sugar to salt.

Does using more sugar retain so much moisture that it gives you a too moist smoked fish, rather than drier, but still moist fish?  And maybe longer shelf life?

  And could using 4 to 1 sugar to salt, be adding to my pellicle problem I've been fighting.?
Good question----I did 8 full MES 30s in those original experiments, but before them I experimented with salt. The first time I used the instructions of floating an egg to get the salt right, and that was way too salty. Then I went to 1/2 cup Salt, 1/2 cup Sugar, and 10 ounces of Soy. Still too salty. Cut the Soy back to 6 ounces, and it was perfect.

Firmness was just right & so was the moisture.

I can't tell you about shelf life because I never had any in the Fridge longer than one week without eating it all, and I freeze the rest.

And all the stuff with the real long shelf life, that I've ever tasted, was just too salty to consume IMHO.

With all of my experiments, I tried to strike a happy medium, and my #8 batch was just a confirmation of that, because it was an exact duplicate of batch #7.

Also I don't think the amount of sugar has anything to do with how tough the surface is. I think that is more from how long you keep it at mid-temps before raising the temp to finish it, and how much air flow it gets while smoking.

I hope that helps a little.

Bear
 
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Thanks Bear.  I did notice that you explained that you had to keep bumping it to keep smoke going.

As for added amount of soy, after some searching on the web, it seems negligible.  Without the soy, maybe add 1-2 tsp salt to achieve same ratio.  To little to matter.  Just a flavor thing.
 Also I don't think the amount of sugar has anything to do with how tough the surface is. I think that is more from how long you keep it at mid-temps before raising the temp to finish it, and how much air flow it gets while smoking.
So I would be better off cold smoking longer at under 80*-90*  maybe 2 hours, and then take it it to 130*

and then to 150-160-180* or 190* to finish to IT, within just a couple of hours or less, for reduced pellicle toughness?

In other word faster at end then holding at 130*-150 for too much time?

Am I the "only person" on this forum to experience tough pellicles after smoking fish?  

No one has replied that has ever experienced the same problem, in any of my fish questions threads. 

Story of my life.  It must just be me.   LOL

------------------------------------

Smoked our winter supply of cheese yesterday and the fridge smells GREAT!!!  when you open it!  LOL

Tillamook Cheddar, Provolone, Havarti, and American white cheese.
 
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Thanks Bear.  I did notice that you explained that you had to keep bumping it to keep smoke going.

As for added amount of soy, after some searching on the web, it seems negligible.  Without the soy, maybe add 1-2 tsp salt to achieve same ratio.  To little to matter.  Just a flavor thing.

So I would be better off cold smoking longer at under 80*-90*  maybe 2 hours, and then take it it to 130*

and then to 150-160-180* or 190* to finish to IT, within just a couple of hours or less, for reduced pellicle toughness?

In other word faster at end then holding at 130*-150 for too much time?

Am I the "only person" on this forum to experience tough pellicles after smoking fish?  

No one has replied that has ever experienced the same problem, in any of my fish questions threads. 

Story of my life.  It must just be me.   LOL

------------------------------------

Smoked our winter supply of cheese yesterday and the fridge smells GREAT!!!  when you open it!  LOL

Tillamook Cheddar, Provolone, Havarti, and American white cheese.
Since we aren't using cure on these, I would skip the cold smoking, so there aren't too many hours in the danger zone.

If you only got a partial pellicle, I would try:

One hour at 120* without smoke to complete pellicle.

​One hour of 140* with smoke.
One hour later, bump to 160* with smoke.
One hour later, bump to 180* with smoke.
One hour later, bump to 190 * with smoke until pieces get to 145* IT.

What you are getting on the outside, I wouldn't call pellicle. Pellicle is the dry tacky surface you get by drying the surface, either with air movement or a little heat without smoke.

​The toughness you're getting is just that, a tough leathery surface from heat and a lot of air. Everybody gets some of that, but some get it worse. I believe it to be from too much air flow, like from opening a smoker door too often. I got it one time on boneless skinless chicken breasts. I was having trouble with getting my heat deflector right to balance the heat out in my smoker, so I was constantly opening the door to adjust the plate. The element had to keep on catching up, so the heat was on a lot & the air was flowing every time I opened the door. My Chicken breasts ended up with a bark on them that was like a leathery skin.

Bear
 
 
Unable to smoke yesterday.  Fish in brine now, and will form pellicle tomorrow, then refrigerate until Friday, because of rain, and smoke on Friday.

I'm using 1 c TQ to 4 c sugar, in 2 qt liquid.  So a longer time in brine shouldn't hurt.

I'm sorry Bear. 

I forgot to mention that my wet brine is going to be with TQ and a 4 to 1 ratio sugar to salt.  So low temps won't be a problem.

You're right, a  leathery skin is a much better way, for me to describe what I am getting.  Just dried out flesh on top. 

I used the term pellicle, because that is where it starts.  I think it comes from too much air flow in chamber with my unit, and too long at higher temps.

I'm considering tenting fish inside the cooking chamber, with a foil cap above, with a smoke vent whole.  Or finding my chimney lid (long misplaced and choking down the output. It may reduce air flow & let the moisture stay inside a little longer before reaching 140*. 

If that don't work, then I will just have to think this unit is not good for smoking fish, and go buy a cheap little vertical smoker.

Or... go back to my redneck setup, with my oval kettle grill.  Don't ask.  LOL 

It involves lots of tinfoil, 2 coffee cans, top and bottom removed, fire pot, and is a pita!  But it did work! 

At the time I didn't I didn't have any therms, but the fish came out great anyway. 

It took at least 6-8 hours back then, and I never even heard of cure#1 or TQ then.  Also a weak brine overnight.  1c salt/1 c sugar per gal of water.  Fan dried 1 hour.

No leathery surface, no too moist flesh, no too dry flesh.  Perfect!

I loved it when I ignorant of safety!   Ignorance is bliss?  LOL

But the main thing I think it was in a smaller cooking chamber, and didn't dry out so much, I believe.
 
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