Water bath question

[bobrap]

I kinda understand the idea of poaching, but, not sure completely. A friend asked why the ice bath after poaching. If it's done sous vide, the temp isn't that much higher than your target temp. I guess the question is.. What is the reason for the ice bath? I told him I do it because that's what the recipe said to do! lol. Appreciate any insight. Thanks

 

[redheelerdog]

Hi Bob, good question.

The reason for the ice bath is to stop the cooking temp from rising.

If there is no ice bath the temp will continue to rise several degrees beyond the target temp.

It's all about temperature control.

 

[bobrap]

Hi Bob, good question.

The reason for the ice bath is to stop the cooking temp from rising.

If there is no ice bath the temp will continue to rise several degrees beyond the target temp.

It's all about temperature control.

I get that if in a smoker at 170 shooting for 152. Doesn't sous vide poaching bring the meat to the desired temp without "overheating" the outside. If it's poached in 155 degree water, it can't get higher than that, correct? I think maybe this is a case of over-thinking. My answer to my buddy is going to be "Because"! :D

 

[redheelerdog]

Good point with the sous vide. I have not used that method. When I poached I always had a target temp and the smoker/poacher temp was higher.

Seems logical that it would not overheat with sous vide, might just take longer.

 

[chopsaw]

I kinda understand the idea of poaching, but, not sure completely. A friend asked why the ice bath after poaching. If it's done sous vide, the temp isn't that much higher than your target temp. I guess the question is.. What is the reason for the ice bath? I told him I do it because that's what the recipe said to do! lol. Appreciate any insight. Thanks

I'm not the expert on this , but have the help of daveomak for the times , temps AND the cool down . From what I understand , is that when doing it sous vide a fast cool down to FRIDGE temps is important to stop the regrowth of bacteria . It's not the same as bringing to temp in the smoker , then cool to below 90 then hang .
Again this is the way I understand it . Maybe Dave will jump in and explain it the right way , or better .

 

[farmerchad]

Not an expert, just a weekly Sous Vide user.

The ice bath prevents bacteria from building back up, before it reaches chilly enough temperatures. Now, the question does beg to be asked, whats the threshold? I believe in the "baldwin papers", that threshold is 11 hours. So, in theory, if your SV'ed meat product reaches fridge temps, or less, within 11 hours you should be ok.

But why risk it? Plunge in cold water for about an hour, then into the fridge or freezer.

But hopefully Dave will chime in, and correct me if im wrong.

 

[farmerchad]

Found it, the 11 hour reference. But, the faster you chill the food, the faster you can clean up and be done. Moving on to the next meaty project. :D

http://douglasbaldwin.com/Baldwin-IJGFS-Preprint.pdf

5. If you plan to chill or freeze the food for later use, then it’s important to follow a few simple steps: (a) You have to chill the food rapidly to limit sporulation of C. perfringens (since it creates its toxins while sporulating); cooling to 4.4◦C/40◦F within 11 hours is generally recommended (Snyder, 1995). This is usually done in an ice-water bath; see Table 3 for cooling times.

 

[daveomak]

http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html

If you’re not going to eat all your food immediately, then you need to know that some bacteria are able to make spores. Spores themselves will not make you sick, but they can become active bacteria that could. Cooking to kill active bacteria like Listeria, Salmonella, and E. coli will leave these spores unharmed. If you keep your food hot, then the spores will not become active bacteria. But when you cool your food, the spores can become active bacteria: if you cool your food too slowly or store it for too long, then these active bacteria can multiply and make you sick. To keep these spores from becoming active bacteria, you must quickly cool your food – still sealed in its pouch – in ice water that is at least half ice until it’s cold all the way through. You can then store your food in your refrigerator for a few days or freeze it for up to a year. Table 1.1 has approximate cooling times in ice water based on thickness and shape.

If you want to learn more about food safety, please continue reading below; see my book Sous Vide for the Home Cook; the excellent free guide by Dr Snyder; the FDA’s food safety website; or your local health and human services department.

 

[daveomak]

Found it, the 11 hour reference. But, the faster you chill the food, the faster you can clean up and be done. Moving on to the next meaty project. :D

http://douglasbaldwin.com/Baldwin-IJGFS-Preprint.pdf

=================================
Chad, afternoon.... I would not use that "Abbreviated Speech" as a guide... Use the tutorial I have listed...
http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html

...

 

[indaswamp]

The ice bath is also to prevent further moisture loss and the plump up the links to remove minor wrinkling in the casing...

 

[farmerchad]

=================================
Chad, afternoon.... I would not use that "Abbreviated Speech" as a guide... Use the tutorial I have listed...
http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html

...

Dave, I think something was lost in translation.

I provided the link as a source of info. Didnt want it to look like I just made up a number out of thin air.

I was only quoting exactly what is in the Baldwin link, and in that, it does point to "Table 3", which is the same cooling time frame that you present. I also repeated the idea that faster cooling is the way to go. I dont think anyone would interpret that to mean that they can wait to start chilling at the 11th hour.

I can only see 2 situations where the "11 hour rule" would come to play.

1. The user has SV'd a hunk of meat about the shape/size a 20lb propane tank.

2. The user has no clue whats going on...

Either way, the user should probably return their Sous Vide to the store. In a couple days they probably wont need it. If you catch my drift.

 

[daveomak]

That's fine... I'm just saying the link you provided is an abbreviated synopsis that doesn't have all the details, that anyone partaking in SV should have access to... It's like reading the Cliff notes about SV and food safety...

 

[chopsaw]

The ice bath is also to prevent further moisture loss and the plump up the links to remove minor wrinkling in the casing...

This is where it gets cloudy for me . I see it as 2 different things . If I take sausage to 152 in the smoker , then yes , ice bath to stop cooking and casing wrinkle .

If I cook sausage in the sous vide to 140 safe to eat , then I think the ice cool down fast as possible is to prevent the re growth of bacteria .

 

[indaswamp]

Noted...thanks for posting chopsaw.

 

[chopsaw]

Noted...thanks for posting chopsaw.

I'm not saying I'm right ,,, I'm still trying to know why I'm doing what I'm doing .

 

[indaswamp]

I'm not saying I'm right ,,, I'm still trying to know why I'm doing what I'm doing .

No, you are correct.

When smoking sausage, we use cure - which is why we can hang the links to bloom and not worry too much about it. When doing sous vide (unless finishing smoke sausage or bacon with cure) most of the time we do not use cure. Also, the meat is in a sealed bag. All the bacteria and spores that could contaminate the food is in the bag. The cooking process kills most of the bacteria down to whatever log function scale chart you are referencing, but the spores are still there in the bag....hard suckers to kill actually. Matter of fact, the spores are everywhere...we breathe them in every day. It's not until they grow and produce those toxins that it becomes a problem. So- the spores are what we need to worry about when sous vide cooking because we do not have cure in the meat. Ice bath those items that will not be consumed immediately to reduce the temp. fast.

At least this is my understanding....

 

[DanMcG]

The ice bath is also to prevent further moisture loss and the plump up the links to remove minor wrinkling in the casing...

I agree IDS, it also helps in binding the casings to the meat.

 

[daveomak]

I was curious to determine if, SV temperature had something to do with the ice bath step.... Evidently not... BUT... It has something to do with refrigerated storage life.. In the case of Confit and 176 F SV temps, the storage life is indefinitely, below 39F.... So, it seems there is no "one size fits all" in this process, just as in other processes... Curing, whole muscle vs. ground meats, poultry and beef, brine curing vs. dry rub curing.. bacon vs. butts..... etc... etc...
http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html#Turkey_Duck_or_Goose_Leg_Confit
Turkey, Duck or Goose Leg Confit

• Duck, Goose or Turkey Legs
• Rendered Duck or Goose Fat (or Lard)
• Salt and Pepper

Place legs in a 5–10% brine (50–100 grams salt per 1 liter) for three to six hours. The brine may be flavored with sprigs of thyme, bay leaves, garlic, and orange/ lemon slices.

After brining, rinse legs and pat dry with paper towels. Season with Kosher/sea salt and coarse ground pepper. Individually vacuum seal the legs with 2–4 tablespoons of rendered fat.

Place the vacuum sealed legs in a 176°F (80°C) water bath for 8 to 12 hours. Since some of the liquid in the bag will change phase (to gas), the bag will puff and may float to the surface. To prevent uneven cooking, the bags should be held under water using a wire rack or some other restraint. [After cooking, the legs may be rapidly cooled in ice water (see Table 1.1) and frozen or refrigerated at below 39°F (4°C) indefinitely.]

To serve, (reheat and) sear until skin is crispy. May also be served without skin and torn into pieces.