Temp. Probe Contamination !?!?

[buffalosmoke]

Posted by bbally in food safety:
http://prochefblog.com/public_pics/f...09foodcode.pdf

And you might wanna get some coffee too...it's almost 700 pages!

 

[bbally]

The four hour limit applies to FOOD period. It does not matter if you are prepping it, cooking it or curing it, you must not violate the four hour rule at all in total without going above the kill temperatures or below the growth temperature.

The toxin does break down at 212 F but the spore does not go away until 240 F for 15 minutes. Well above most barbeque pull temps.


I think you have misunderstand, if you are planning on cooking a piece of meat and having it in the danger zone more than four hours or you want to pull it while in the danger zone (prime rib) you do not want to violate the intact muscle rule. Which states you can not pierce the meat without knowing you are safe. If you allow the outside of the meat to go above 140 F you can then place a sterilized probe in the meat without creating a violation of the intact muscle rule.

The new 2009 code has offered 135 F as the top of the danger zone instead of the old 140 F. You will see them used interchangably until the 2009 code spreads to enough people.

Also on cooling, you have 6 hours in two steps, 2 hours below 70 F then 4 hours below 40 F.

 

[bmudd14474]

I know this is a heated topic for all here at time. But we will error on the side of caution and only recommend the safest way. You may choose to do something different and that is fine but if you are making a recommendation on this site we expect it to be the safe recommendation based off of the food code.

There is a reason that we go off of the food code. It is because of the same thing we are seeing in this thread. I can search the internet and get the answers I want to see about anything. I could search and get it to tell me Im a millionaire but is that true NO.

At some point there has to be a standard that is chosen and for SMF it is the food code. Not a piece from here and a piece from there.

Also remember that BBally is certified in Food Safety and is a Certified Food Safety Trainer so he does this for a living. I could look thru the 700 page food code and get what I need out of it but will I ever fully understand it? No.


Last but not least just remember when giving safety advise its better to be safe then sorry because if someone takes your advise and its wrong (or they execute it wrong because of confusion) they are the ones that suffer and NOT you.

 

[tasunkawitko]

with all due respect to bbally, and not to open a whole 'nother can of worms, but there are several people here with the same credentials.

facts are facts - the problems come with interpretations.

 

[bbally]

I agree that is why I responded with my understanding of the science. It is also why I watch to see how someone would answer the "in process question" when applied to the turkey. I think that question sure brought home the error in the thinking that cooking times don't matter if its in the oven, and made the misinturpretation very easy to be understood as not factual or even based in common sense.

 

[bmudd14474]

Unless you are one of those people I think you need not comment on this topic. If those people feel like coming fwd then more power to them and they are welcomed but as of now none of your "other" people with the same credentials have come fwd.

 

[tasunkawitko]

bmudd - those "other people" either have been quite specific in that they don't want to get in a wrestling match with a pig (no attack on anyone, they are just saying that that the topic is a lose-lose situation), or they are concerned about being reprisals in the form of censorship, suspension and banning for daring to put forth some common sense on the subject.

it doesn't take a "certified expert" to do some research and educate oneself on such things. what it takes is research and informed discussion. for instance, the world health organziation and the university of florida data shows that c bot TOXINS are dead at 176. while they say that the spores can survive up to temperatures near the boiling point, both sources agree that the toxins are what's dangerous, not the spores. the spores are harmless to anyone but infants. further, both sources state quite specifically that barbecue is not a "risk factor" for c bot - rather, they list activities such as improper home canning (anaerobic environment) and improper cooking of seafood and sea mammals, of all things. if they are going to get into activities as esoteric as sea mammals, then barbecue would also be listed, if there were an appreciable danger. it's not listed.

those are just some instances where the facts stand in the way of interpretations that have been posted. the best thing people can do is educate themselves and not succumb to panic and throw a 25$ brisket away for no reason. i have not seen a single member say that USDA should be tossed out the window, but it needs to be applied correctly, not misapplied recklessly.

those are my 2 cents on the subject, as well as my final say. this particular topic is a sucker's game and it will never be resolved as long as intelligent discussion on it is quashed. i think i've taken enough bullets for the cause, so i'm done with the subject - it's time for another gallileo or copernicus to weigh in.

 

[pineywoods]

Personally I find it disturbing that a few people have such a hard time accepting food safety rules as sound advice. Every restaurant in the United States has to follow them and they don't say oh well your a BBQ place so your exempt. If you choose to do what you want thats up to you and the people that eat your food. The owner of this site has said we will go by the USDA standards so that is what we will do. Now as far as who knows what we have seen Bbally's certifications and the site owner chose to make him a "Trusted Authority" and that carries a lot of weight with me and I'm sure many others here.

 

[bmudd14474]

Your right it doesnt take a expert to google something. But when you have someone who is certified and someone who googles something I am going to side with the person who has been certified and re-certified instead of someone who knows how to use a search engine.

 

[deltadude]

This thread was an interesting thread, until these kind of comments were posted!

1st I have learned a lot, that is the result of being allowed to express either an opinion, ask a question, or make a comment.

Now WE are being told that unless we are a certified authority to keep out of any such discussion.

OR

Disturbing? How so, because one asks a question based on USDA information, that is disturbing? What was disturbed, your knowledge base, your experience, your conscience? Civil, was there any post I made that wasn't civil and respectful, and asked legitimate questions not based on my whim, but referenced every time with USDA references? Did I not already state that I respected bbally as an authority on this subject, therefore attempting to elevate the discussion to an academic one he as my mentor?

Am I not a citizen of this forum, and allowed to ask questions even if the questions may run contrary to SMF gospel, as long as they are respectful and ment to help further knowledge and not ment to be disruptive or produce disharmony? Because that is not my intent...

bbally has been nothing but respectful in handling my questions and also is helpful with more in depth explanations behind the scenes in PM, so bbally and I have zero problem. The only problem seems to be with some who can not grasp the difference between respectful inquisitive knowledge seeking and disruptive tirade to just make noise.

 

[bmudd14474]

Deltadude,

My post was not aimed at you it was at TasunkaWitko and that is why I quoted him.

I agree that there is alot of good information in this thread but my response to TasunkaWitko was because this isnt the first thread that he has argued/discussed the same things and got the same answers back. He doesnt seem to understand or want to understand the position of SMF.

As stated before I encourage questions but once they are answered then move on. Dont rehash things in a different thread because you didnt get the answer you wanted.

 

[stircrazy]

If this is directed at me, I wasn't searching till I found and answer on goggle that suted me, I read the section in your food code and am trying to interpret why it is different that what has been said as it is different from other US gov documents. I do have a food safty course but am not a trainer, I also have a serving it right course so if you need to know stuff about serving drinks to drunks I can answer that

I agree there will always be grea areas otherwise the code would never change, but I can tell you the US code is different from the canadian code and other countries code, is the US one more strict because of the Jack in the box problems of years ago?

for BBally, what is the difference in your ground meet vs whole mussle meet as it pertains to smoking? I know to me I would be much more worried about the 4 hour thing with ground meet, as intact whole mussel meet "should" only have the bacteria on the outside and would be killed off very fast in a 225 to 250 degree smoker as the surface will be brought up to that temp rather quickly.

I am not trying to fuel an argument, just trying to further my understanding since most of the peopl on here are Americans and I am not familier with your code.

Steve

 

[tasunkawitko]

you must have missed this part:

and if "googling" leads to the world health organization and the university of florida, and they state information that is a differing interpretation, then there is no reason not to bring it to light in the spirit of getting authoritative information out to those who seek it.

the number of people seeking answers are proof enough that the subject is not "closed." until the contradictions are ironed out and applied to barbecue, then this is always going to be an issue. quashing discusion on it and banning skeptics will do no good. only a marriage between common sense, logic, experience and safety is going to bring about a satisfactory resolution.

 

[tasunkawitko]

once again, no disrepect is intended, nor is anyone advocating that people ignore USDA. what we are saying is people should not oonly read the guidelines but also understand them and apply them correctly. goals such as this have been accomplished very well since the days of ancient greece, by open discussion and "hashing out" of the facts. anyone who has been to college knows this.

 

[pineywoods]

Stircrazy as I understand it ground meat is the same as punctured meat in that you have to take it from 41-135 in under 4 hours.
Whole intact muscle rule says that you have to get the outer .5" from 41-135 in under 4 hours.
If I'm incorrect I'm sure Bob can correct me. These standards were 40-140 until this year.

Tas while ya'll know I like the Gators the University of Florida nor the World Health Organization make up the food safety rules for the U.S.

 

[rdknb]

I know this thread got a little heated at times, but I learned a lot and will be paying a but more attention to the 4 hour mark. Since I inject I guess it does not matter when I insert probe as long as I get to 135/140 in 4 hours. Is that correct

 

[pineywoods]

That is correct as I understand the rules

 

[pignit]

Although this document is a few years old, it is an excellent read and has some interesting numbers in it.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/yf/foods/fn572-1.htm

It's not a long read and is very comprehensive.

 

[stircrazy]

thats what I have been trying to figure out. when doing a intact muscle and you finaly do use a probe at say the 4 hour mark, are you only probing the 1/2" on the surface to see what the temp is or are you putting the probe in the middle?

I actualy had a funny though, if we use an alchol swab and wipe down a couple inches around the site you want to put your probe in and wipe the probe can we still treat it as intact muscle? its good enough for putting needles in our arms

mind you it might make it tase funny there

Steve

 

[bbally]

You are correct in that hamburger is a larger worry than whole muscle.

The following the whole muscle rule is a way to be safe while having meat consumed at a temperature in under the recommend roasting temperature. It is also a way to ensure meat safety should it stall for a long period of time in the danger zone.

Your also correct on the outside being killed off fast. That is why it is recommended that the probe placement into the meat be delayed until the outside of the meat reaches the kill temperature. This ensures that no bacteria is pushed into the center of the meat by the probe.

If it has not been punctured it can be handled under the intact muscle rule. You can put the probe in delayed to give the outside a chance to heat past the kill zone.