Sodium Erythorbate Dry Rub Test

[DougE]

Afternoon @daveomak ,
I always appreciate your posts, in fact welcome them.

I have done the testing on different forms of vitamin C, see the post above, when I noticed that Waltons and Backwoods seasoning both had NaE in their bacon dry rub cure with nitrite added this got my squirrel cage moving thinking about possibilities. Granted my testing is small with dry rub nitrite cure mix plus NaE but the evidence is pretty easy to see. Ascorbic acid is a completely different animal in terms of reaction with nitrite as I have noted.

I always wondered why some recommended the addition of NaE to brines as cover pickle, I figured that was counter productive, but apparently it’s not and will work just fine. The meats I have put into cure are all curing perfectly with the NaE addition. When NaE is dissolved in water and cure #1 is added, no discernible reaction happens even after 10 minutes. Citrus juice or wine are much more reactive.

Did you go just on a rack or bagged in your dry cure experiment using erythorbate?

 

[SmokinEdge]

Did you go just on a rack or bagged in your dry cure experiment using erythorbate?

All bagged.

 

[DougE]

All bagged.

Be an interesting experiment to see how this accelerated cure method would act outside containment. I am positing that the bag retains the gases, allowing them to act on the meat and if done open on a rack, the nitrite would gas out without having the same effect.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Be an interesting experiment to see how this accelerated cure method would act outside containment. I am positing that the bag retains the gases, allowing them to act on the meat and if done open on a rack, the nitrite would gas out without having the same effect.

Won’t make a difference. Studies have been done testing meat with just nitric oxide gas in a tent or bag, works on the surface but does not penetrate the meat. Salt needs to be present for osmosis , salt is still the carrier, but the NaE seems to speed that process, I’m not sure as of now exactly how, but it does speed the process. This is fun to look at and look into.

 

[DougE]

This is why I dig going deep. It gives us a better understanding of how the process works!

 

[SmokinEdge]

This is why I dig going deep. It gives us a better understanding of how the process works!

Well, we know that at least 2 big bulk suppliers, that being Waltons and Backwoods seasonings have bacon dry rubs with NaE included with nitrite in the cure mix. So obviously this is stable. The NaE does not just magically react with nitrite in dry form. Once applied to meat, there will be moisture. It is here that the reaction can occur. Still the reaction is not instantaneous, rather it’s more controlled, this has been my experience thus far.

 

[geostriata]

Well, we know that at least 2 big bulk suppliers, that being Waltons and Backwoods seasonings have bacon dry rubs with NaE included with nitrite in the cure mix. So obviously this is stable. The NaE does not just magically react with nitrite in dry form. Once applied to meat, there will be moisture. It is here that the reaction can occur. Still the reaction is not instantaneous, rather it’s more controlled, this has been my experience thus far.

That's my thinking as well. Moisture and meat need to be present to kick things off.

Won’t make a difference. Studies have been done testing meat with just nitric oxide gas in a tent or bag, works on the surface but does not penetrate the meat. Salt needs to be present for osmosis , salt is still the carrier, but the NaE seems to speed that process, I’m not sure as of now exactly how, but it does speed the process. This is fun to look at and look into.

I do think DougE might be onto something thinking there might be a difference between bagged and unbagged. Possibly in those studies, if the meat was salted, the nitric oxide gas might have reacted beyond the surface of the meat somehow...

 

[DougE]

That's my thinking as well. Moisture and meat need to be present to kick things off.


I do think DougE might be onto something thinking there might be a difference between bagged and unbagged. Possibly in those studies, if the meat was salted, the nitric oxide gas might have reacted beyond the surface of the meat somehow...

I have nothing to back up what I said, I was just throwing it out there for discussion because the possibility crossed my mind.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Possibly in those studies, if the meat was salted, the nitric oxide gas might have reacted beyond the surface of the meat somehow...

This only happens with diffusion. Partly why Sodium Erythorbate was made as the “sodium of ascorbic acid” sodium is the driver of diffusion. I’m thinking you don’t completely understand the chemical curing process.

Also Marianski recommends covering your bowl of cubed meat with not plastic but a cloth cotton towel to allow gas to escape.

 

[geostriata]

This only happens with diffusion. Partly why Sodium Erythorbate was made as the “sodium of ascorbic acid” sodium is the driver of diffusion. I’m thinking you don’t completely understand the chemical curing process.

Also Marianski recommends covering your bowl of cubed meat with not plastic but a cloth cotton towel to allow gas to escape.

I was thinking about osmosis and how water always follows sodium, and if that wasn't going on how that'd impact the nitric oxide test.

Like, in one scenario, you have nitric oxide binding with only the surface myoglobin, but there's no movement (osmoregulation?) taking place.

In other scenario, you have movement. Water is following sodium and osmosis is taking place. Meanwhile, nitric oxide binds with myoglobin, but because of that sodium "pump", more myoglobin is exposed to react with nitric oxide.

That's what I was thinking at least.

 

[SmokinEdge]

I was thinking about osmosis and how water always follows sodium, and if that wasn't going on how that'd impact the nitric oxide test.

Like, in one scenario, you have nitric oxide binding with only the surface myoglobin, but there's no movement (osmoregulation?) taking place.

In other scenario, you have movement. Water is following sodium and osmosis is taking place. Meanwhile, nitric oxide binds with myoglobin, but because of that sodium "pump", more myoglobin is exposed to react with nitric oxide.

That's what I was thinking at least.

Yes, it’s the process of first diffusion of sodium into the meat. This causes osmosis where the water in the center of the meat rushes outwards to balance the high sodium concentration on the surface. This is why a salt brine pulls moisture out of meat, no batteries required. Once the sodium has diffused to center and is now of higher concentration than the surface, the process reverses and water moves back to the center to balance the higher sodium concentration. At this point we are trying to reach equilibrium, where sodium is same on surface as is the core center of the meat.

This is why “hot brines” are time sensitive, and “equilibrium “ brines are not.

The higher the sodium concentration the faster diffusion and osmosis take place.

Regular salt is a sodium, cure #1 is all parts sodium, SE again is a sodium product. If phosphate is used again it’s in sodium phosphate form. Sodium drives diffusion which creates osmosis.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Yes, it’s the process of first diffusion of sodium into the meat. This causes osmosis where the water in the center of the meat rushes outwards to balance the high sodium concentration on the surface. This is why a salt brine pulls moisture out of meat, no batteries required. Once the sodium has diffused to center and is now of higher concentration than the surface, the process reverses and water moves back to the center to balance the higher sodium concentration. At this point we are trying to reach equilibrium, where sodium is same on surface as is the core center of the meat.

This is why “hot brines” are time sensitive, and “equilibrium “ brines are not.

The higher the sodium concentration the faster diffusion and osmosis take place.

Regular salt is a sodium, cure #1 is all parts sodium, SE again is a sodium product. If phosphate is used again it’s in sodium phosphate form. Sodium drives diffusion which creates osmosis.

This is also why when you buy or make a piece of meat that is over salty, you soak it in fresh water. Osmosis takes over and the higher concentration of salt in the core of the meat moves to the surface to balance the low sodium environment, this is just the opposite of when we first start a cure but it’s the same process, sodium and water want to be in equilibrium. So we can both diffuse sodium into meat but we can also diffuse sodium out of meat. It’s all in the balance between the two.

 

[DougE]

This is why “hot brines” are time sensitive, and “equilibrium “ brines are not.

And why I prefer "equilibrium" methods of curing. I know that once the sodium equalizes, the meat will have the salt content I want. No guessing or soaking needed.

 

[Hijack73]

Now I'm curious as to why your process evolved (this vs 2 week dry curing on a rack). Just to drive out moisture? Was there ever a noticeable effect on flavor profile quick curing with the SE as you went farther down the path?

 

[DougE]

Now I'm curious as to why your process evolved (this vs 2 week dry curing on a rack). Just to drive out moisture? Was there ever a noticeable effect on flavor profile quick curing with the SE as you went farther down the path?

Far as I know, Eric is still doing the 2 week dry cure on a rack in the fridge, like usual. The erythorbate trial was just that. An experiment to see what it would do, added to a dry cure.

 

[Hijack73]

Far as I know, Eric is still doing the 2 week dry cure on a rack in the fridge, like usual. The erythorbate trial was just that. An experiment to see what it would do, added to a dry cure.

I understand that, but not 15-16 months ago it was (paraphrased here) a game changer and the future. Just wondering why the change to a 2 week dry cure. Maybe it was a reversion to something he was already doing - I'm just curious.

 

[DougE]

I understand that, but not 15-16 months ago it was (paraphrased here) a game changer and the future. Just wondering why the change to a 2 week dry cure. Maybe it was a reversion to something he was already doing - I'm just curious.

May be that the old way of doing the 2 week dry cure gives the time needed for flavor development vs the expedited way.