Snack stick temps stall.

[indaswamp]

When my sticks or sausages have reached 136*F INT, I stop adding wood chunks for smoke. When the smoke stops, I close down the top dampers to about 85-90% closed. This keeps the humidity extremely high and basically stops evaporative cooling. I time it for 1.5 hours. The final internal temp. might be 142-152*F depending on how loaded up the smoker is, but either way-they are done.

Side note- a lot of commercial sausage makers use a hot water spray bath with liquid smoke and water. Water transfers heat 25X faster than air. And inside the spray oven, the humidity reaches 100%, so no evaporation loss from the sausages. This keeps the weight loss to basically zero. More water weight = more profit.

 

[SmokinEdge]

This has to be an omen....

In order to print that chart, I did a search quick for the document that came from. Right from the FSIS site you can download it, so I did. Literally scrolling down not 2 seconds, I see page 17 and stop, and what do I read?

How does Moisture Ensure Bacteria on the Surface are Killed During Cooking?During cooking, achieving a high oven temperature and internal product temperaturealone are not enough to ensure the final product is free of harmful bacteria.Establishments need to make sure that cooking is done in a moist environment toensure lethality. When relative humidity is low, oven air is dry, and a process calledevaporative cooling increases, which is something we do not want. Evaporativecooling is the same thing that allows humans to keep cool by sweating. When you gettoo hot, you produce sweat, and when that sweat evaporates, it cools you down.Evaporation equals cooling.When you gettoohot……you producesweat.When thatsweatevaporates……it cools you down.Just like on a person’s skin, evaporative cooling cools down the surface of meat andpoultry during cooking. Although the oven is hot, because the surface of the product iscooling down, that moisture evaporation can actually prevent the surface of the productfrom becoming hot enough to kill off harmful bacteria. We can reduce evaporativecooling by keeping the humidity in the oven high. That way the moisture in the productdoes not evaporate as quickly, keeping the meat’s surface moist and hot and resultingin an adequate bacterial kill. Whydoes this work?

Well of course... My efforts to remove the moisture are actually not only a waste of time, they're counterproductive. It does on to give interesting analogs to the process, but suffice to say they want the oven air to be humid in order to prohibit evaporation and kill the bacteria on the surface. So yes, in my smoker I'm better off not waiting for any drying to take place, and just use the room temp or fridge to finish them over a few days. Limit to one diameter casing from now on, and most of the problems will go away.

The link to that document is:

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/guidelines/2021-0014

That temp table is on page 36.

Don’t get into the rabbit holes of sausage or bbq for that matter. Stick with what works.

Ditch YouTube and pay attention to this site specifically for process. There is a collective of 100’s of years Combined experience here and they are willing to share what they know works. This is hands down THE best internet site for smoking, curing and bbq bar none. They really should charge to see the archives alone which are free currently. The index is beyond YouTube and much more correct.

Happy to have you aboard.

 

[Fueling Around]

Stayed out of this thread as I don't make sticks.
I'm mostly a fresh sausage maker either bulk or stuffed in collagen, lamb, or hog casings.
I have cured and smoked whole meat for years.
However this post made me add my 2¢

...
Ditch YouTube and pay attention to this site specifically for process. There is a collective of 100’s of years Combined experience here and they are willing to share what they know works. This is hands down THE best internet site for smoking, curing and bbq bar none. They really should charge to see the archives alone which are free currently. The index is beyond YouTube and much more correct.
...

Well said Eric.
I wish everyone would start here first.

 

[zwiller]

Great stuff so far. To me you need to a combination of things to beat the stall. One thing that helps but was not mentioned was let the product warm up/come to room temp before smoking.

Side note- a lot of commercial sausage makers use a hot water spray bath with liquid smoke and water. Water transfers heat 25X faster than air. And inside the spray oven, the humidity reaches 100%, so no evaporation loss from the sausages. This keeps the weight loss to basically zero. More water weight = more profit.

I am experimenting with a water pan lined with an evaporative "cooling towel" as a hack to bump up the humidity. Really liking what it does.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Great stuff so far. To me you need to a combination of things to beat the stall. One thing that helps but was not mentioned was let the product warm up/come to room temp before smoking.

I am experimenting with a water pan lined with an evaporative "cooling towel" as a hack to bump up the humidity. Really liking what it does.

View attachment 735943

The large automotive sponges like you use to hand wash a car place in a water pan work well too.

 

[BugHunter]

Well said Eric.
I wish everyone would start here first.

Well, ya have to find the forum first... Fact is, it cripples my tablet to a point it will crash. So, a bit heavy on the videos and ads to even view it on such a device.

Great stuff so far. To me you need to a combination of things to beat the stall. One thing that helps but was not mentioned was let the product warm up/come to room temp before smoking.

I am experimenting with a water pan lined with an evaporative "cooling towel" as a hack to bump up the humidity. Really liking what it does.

View attachment 735943

I've done a 1 hour hang in the kitchen before, but not last batch and not this most recent batch. This batch I did an hour at 100f with the cold smoker running. Then 120 just long enough to avoid overshoot on the way to 130, then 140, 150, 170, 180.

The best batch I've done so far was in a borrowed 10yr old smoker with no window. Ignorance is bliss, I didn't realize the humidity inside was so high so I didn't attempt to reduce it. That may well have been why they turned out better.

So you are trying to actually add even more moisture! Interesting. I had water in the pan one time, but dry ever since. Everything I've seen before I found this forum was people working with propane or pellet smokers. But there's a night and day difference in the process using electric. Huge difference in airflow.

 

[zwiller]

So you are trying to actually add even more moisture! Interesting. I had water in the pan one time, but dry ever since. Everything I've seen before I found this forum was people working with propane or pellet smokers. But there's a night and day difference in the process using electric. Huge difference in airflow.

It's important to not conflate (new favorite word). We're talking sausage here. Different beast than the standard smoked fare like chicken/ribs/etc. Zero water for that stuff. I used my MES a long time for that stuff and it was good but wish someone woulda suggested a pellet grill as it really does a much better job than the MES. That said, MES + PID works fantastic for sausage (and cured stuff).

 

[chopsaw]

wish someone woulda suggested a pellet grill as it really does a much better job than the MES.

That hurts ,,,,,

 

[zwiller]

That hurts ,,,,,

WHAT?! Oh man I owe you big time for the Smokefire. Love that thing.

 

[SmokinEdge]

The stall is what it is, evaporative cooling effect, but I noticed you are in flyover country, which means lower ambient humidity on average in the west.

Dry air can and will cause dry ring on sausage. This is where the exterior of the sausage dries kinda like jerky, may only be 1/16 to 1/8” thick but is there just the same. This can and will cause temp rise stall.

For me on the west side of Colorado it’s especially bad. Which is partly why I moved to hot fast cooking and hot water finishing on pretty much all sausage. Sticks not so much but everything other sausage type I make is water finished because of the dry. The large 4-5” sausage is where I really learned this.

 

[indaswamp]

That hurts ,,,,,

Dunno why, but made me think of this old cartoon...
"I HATE MEECES TO PIECES!!!!" LOL!!!!

 

[BugHunter]

The stall is what it is, evaporative cooling effect, but I noticed you are in flyover country, which means lower ambient humidity on average in the west.

Dry air can and will cause dry ring on sausage. This is where the exterior of the sausage dries kinda like jerky, may only be 1/16 to 1/8” thick but is there just the same. This can and will cause temp rise stall.

For me on the west side of Colorado it’s especially bad. Which is partly why I moved to hot fast cooking and hot water finishing on pretty much all sausage. Sticks not so much but everything other sausage type I make is water finished because of the dry. The large 4-5” sausage is where I really learned this.

Central PA here, no flyover territory within earshot. Still, I agree, humidity has been instrumental, though I'm not sure it's been what stung me. The biggest ones I've made were 19mm, and the most I've done is cool with water, never heat. No suis vide or water bath ever.

Tomorrow I intend to buy a roast and use my new grinder for the first time, whip up a batch and smoke them Saturday. Wish me luck! Same recipe as before but hopefully with a better result.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Central PA here, no flyover territory within earshot. Still, I agree, humidity has been instrumental, though I'm not sure it's been what stung me. The biggest ones I've made were 19mm, and the most I've done is cool with water, never heat. No suis vide or water bath ever.

Tomorrow I intend to buy a roast and use my new grinder for the first time, whip up a batch and smoke them Saturday. Wish me luck! Same recipe as before but hopefully with a better result.

Ok, I remember you saying a couple different times that you were trying to “dry” the sticks a bit in the smoker. This doesn’t work very well and the reason is that sausage must dry from the inside out NOT from outside in. If the outside dries first it creates a dry ring and that acts as a barrier blocking the moisture in the center from moving out.

This is yet another reason that upping the humidity in the smoker is beneficial, not always necessary but can be beneficial.

 

[BugHunter]

Ok, I remember you saying a couple different times that you were trying to “dry” the sticks a bit in the smoker. This doesn’t work very well and the reason is that sausage must dry from the inside out NOT from outside in. If the outside dries first it creates a dry ring and that acts as a barrier blocking the moisture in the center from moving out.

This is yet another reason that upping the humidity in the smoker is beneficial, not always necessary but can be beneficial.

The part of that which seems unintuitive, is that folks using a propane or pellet smoker and do videos on it, show them drying in the smoker. What you say makes perfect sense now that I have my own sticks to confirm what you're saying above. They did some drying at the lower temps around 130-150 (cooker temp), which basically amounts to not much above room temp for the sticks. Mine simply never dried at all, so I figured I was doing something wrong or my electric smoker was different. Turns out both were true :D But I can't look for mine to look they way theirs do, I have to let that happen after the cooking is done, which is what I'll try this weekend. Planning on pickup up a roast today and will give this another try. Thanks again.

 

[zwiller]

Over the years I noticed when it rained and I was smoking stuff, the run went better. Just chalked up to being a good omen. Not any more. RH was near 100%... I later went down a deep rabbit hole to learn how pros smoke cheese (most do NOT BTW and simply use liquid smoke including Hickory Farms) and found those that do use smokers with humidity control. As @indaswamp said, they spray/inject steam/etc to bump the RH inside the smoker. I then went hunting on easy ways to do this and found a few things including guys that have rigged up steam injectors to their smoker. I didn't want to go that far and by pure luck I found a YT video where Waltons simply use a towel to do it. I am not monitoring it but you can definitely tell when opening smoker (and seeing the door). Adding moisture does a number of things. Stops case hardening like @SmokinEdge said. This puts an end to the stall and shortens the smoke. If it only did this I would be happy but it also creates more even temps and more smoke deposition. Win win win. I do think it is entirely possible that if you loaded the smoker just right, all that product itself might do the same thing, but I am typically running only 2-3lbs per run. Very happy with the setup. My runs are typically 8hrs and no need to add water. Super easy and simple.

 

[indaswamp]

@zwiller - Yep. the humidity is important. I actually get the best results when I smoke a minimum of 40# of sausages in my smokehouse. There is enough thermal mass for even cooking, and enough sausages creating moisture for high humidity inside the smokehouse. With the sausages making the moisture, it works well when I close off the vents 85-90% when I pasteurize the sausages. But I like the towel Idea....but that works great for small batches.

 

[BugHunter]

@zwiller - Yep. the humidity is important. I actually get the best results when I smoke a minimum of 40# of sausages in my smokehouse. There is enough thermal mass for even cooking, and enough sausages creating moisture for high humidity inside the smokehouse. With the sausages making the moisture, it works well when I close off the vents 85-90% when I pasteurize the sausages. But I like the towel Idea....but that works great for small batches.

Could you please clarify the italicized part. You're saying when you raise the temp to the 'cook' level, (pasteurize), then you close the vent almost all the way?

Getting ready to head to the store for a roast to grind up. My 4 probe inkbird (unfortunately purchased at the non-sale-price) just showed up. Looks nice and seems easy to set up. Will be wireless on tomorrow's cook. Excited to see that in action.

 

[zwiller]

@zwiller - Yep. the humidity is important. I actually get the best results when I smoke a minimum of 40# of sausages in my smokehouse. There is enough thermal mass for even cooking, and enough sausages creating moisture for high humidity inside the smokehouse. With the sausages making the moisture, it works well when I close off the vents 85-90% when I pasteurize the sausages. But I like the towel Idea....but that works great for small batches.

Easy for you, humid down in da swamp. I tried closing vent at end and not a big impact for me. Probably not enough product. Once you understand it a bit you can see why some guys don't have the issue.

Besides no stall, I think my product is much better now with the towel. Did not expect that AT ALL and just wanted to fix the stall. Color is darker, smokier, feels firmer, and is legit juicier.