Opinions on different phosphates (for hot dogs)

[slavikborisov]

Guys that have used phosphates and have experience with different ones can you give me your opinions on one over another. I've been looking at different hotdogs recipes and have seen several formulations(or brand names) of phosphates weather it be AmesPhos, Brifisol 450 Super, or just pure Sodium Tripolyphosphate.

The info i got briefly off the websites are:
AmesPhos is Combination of: Sodium Tripolyphosphate; Sodium Pyrophosphate and Sodium Hexametaphosphate
Brifisol 450 Super A highly soluble, pH-neutral agglomerated blend of pyrophosphates and polyphosphates
Sodium Tripolyphosphate is just know as that as a phosphate for meats

With these three in mind which I am looking to purchase or I might just try all three is separate recipes I'm assuming all still function the same. For the purposes of moisture retention but as far as specific brands or blends of each, do any of them have a different taste, texture, or work better as far as holding capacity over another. And those that have used them do you prefer one over another?

 

[indaswamp]

Excellent post B BurntWeenie !

 

[indaswamp]

0.25-0.375% is the dosage for phosphates in meats. PH is the main difference between them, but other properties vary as well. sodiumtripolyphosphate does not dissolve well in water below 100*F. Use 100-110*F water to dissolve, then add ice cold water (dissolve cure #1 if using it) to add to meat. I use STPP because I can get it cheap from a local butcher supply shop... $12/5# of STPP. I bought a bag 2 years ago and have about a pound left. Should last me at least another year.

 

[indaswamp]

Oh- I have found using a hand held blender with a whisk attachment is the easiest way to dissolve phosphates in water.....

 

[slavikborisov]

Here;

https://academicjournals.org/article/article1380894469_Long%20et%20al.pdf

Great thank you very good read!!

 

[slavikborisov]

0.25-0.375% is the dosage for phosphates in meats. PH is the main difference between them, but other properties vary as well. Trisodiumphosphate does not dissolve well in water below 100*F. Use 100-110*F water to dissolve, then add ice cold water (dissolve cure #1 if using it) to add to meat. I use TSPP because I can get it cheap from a local butcher supply shop... $12/5# of TSPP. I bought a bag 2 years ago and have about a pound left. Should last me at least another year.

Thank you I appreciate the info!!

 

[chopsaw]

You're going to get some great info , all based in fact .
My opinion is you will have to pick a starting point and figure what it is that you like .
I was using it in sausage at half the recommended rate to start . I in creased that a bit . I actually stopped using it in sausage . I found that the right amount of salt , fat and liquid is perfect for MY taste . May not be for yours .
I do use a small amount of NFDM , but only enough . Because anything more than enough is to much . Maybe a TBLS of NFDM for 2 1/2 pounds of grind , but it's always different because I'm using whole butts .
I do use the phosphates when doing the ham injections . I personally wouldn't make a ham without it .
Hot dogs with STPP

Without


Both were all pork . Single grind through small plate .
I'm using all pork . So if you're using beef or wild game meat I could see the phosphates being more of a benefit . Sodium erythorbate I do use in hot dogs . Helps with the color and the texture .
So , the title says Opinions . There's mine . Lol .

 

[thirdeye]

I have not used different types or brands of phosphates, I buy AmesPhos because of the late Joe Ames's reputation and I'm satisfied. In your searching you may see phosphates marketed by people selling competition BBQ products who use it in injections. Some get pretty heavy handed with their products (like measuring in 1/4 cups) but I have not explored them to see what's in the mixtures. You might be hard pressed to find hot dogs without phosphates, and chopsaw is correct, test out your recipes with and without. Here are some hot dogs with phosphates.

 

[chopsaw]

You might be hard pressed to find hot dogs without phosphates,

You would , and almost anything else that is commercially produced from a loaf of sandwich bread to a frozen hamburger patty .
What I actually did when I first started using it in sausage was look through some Len Poli formulas that used phosphates . I took his amounts , applied it to the volume I had , then cut it in half . It works . I just like the milk powder .

 

[slavikborisov]

You're going to get some great info , all based in fact .
My opinion is you will have to pick a starting point and figure what it is that you like .
I was using it in sausage at half the recommended rate to start . I in creased that a bit . I actually stopped using it in sausage . I found that the right amount of salt , fat and liquid is perfect for MY taste . May not be for yours .
I do use a small amount of NFDM , but only enough . Because anything more than enough is to much . Maybe a TBLS of NFDM for 2 1/2 pounds of grind , but it's always different because I'm using whole butts .
I do use the phosphates when doing the ham injections . I personally wouldn't make a ham without it .
Hot dogs with STPP
View attachment 525977
Without
View attachment 525978
View attachment 525979
Both were all pork . Single grind through small plate .
I'm using all pork . So if you're using beef or wild game meat I could see the phosphates being more of a benefit . Sodium erythorbate I do use in hot dogs . Helps with the color and the texture .
So , the title says Opinions . There's mine . Lol .

awesome thank you for the great input I will definitely test it with and without phosphates both in solely pork and pork and game mix. excellent looking hotdogs!

 

[slavikborisov]

I have not used different types or brands of phosphates, I buy AmesPhos because of the late Joe Ames's reputation and I'm satisfied. In your searching you may see phosphates marketed by people selling competition BBQ products who use it in injections. Some get pretty heavy handed with their products (like measuring in 1/4 cups) but I have not explored them to see what's in the mixtures. You might be hard pressed to find hot dogs without phosphates, and chopsaw is correct, test out your recipes with and without. Here are some hot dogs with phosphates.
View attachment 525984

great thank you!!

 

[slavikborisov]

You would , and almost anything else that is commercially produced from a loaf of sandwich bread to a frozen hamburger patty .
What I actually did when I first started using it in sausage was look through some Len Poli formulas that used phosphates . I took his amounts , applied it to the volume I had , then cut it in half . It works . I just like the milk powder .

Yep that where i saw the majority of it was in len poli's formulations

 

[chopsaw]

saw the majority of it was in len poli's formulations

Yup . You won't go wrong there .
Let us know what you do .

 

[slavikborisov]

Yup . You won't go wrong there .
Let us know what you do .

Will do! Going to pick up some champion juicers here in the next week or two and do a nice batch of hotdogs

 

[zwiller]

Love STPP and have used it extensively but not an expert on all things STPP. You are pretty far down that rabbit hole! IMO I doubt the hobbiest could tell the various ones apart. I have 2 different kinds both from Butcher Packer and I am lead to believe one dissolves easier than the other but otherwise function the same. Blew my mind just how many variations were listed on Brifisol's site!

EDIT: Just saw the Champion Juicer mention. I'd be really curious if you need any binder at all with one of those. I have one but have not run it yet...

I think a few of you would find it interesting that I am using STPP to make processed cheese. Pretty cool stuff.

 

[slavikborisov]

Love STPP and have used it extensively but not an expert on all things STPP. You are pretty far down that rabbit hole! IMO I doubt the hobbiest could tell the various ones apart. I have 2 different kinds both from Butcher Packer and I am lead to believe one dissolves easier than the other but otherwise function the same. Blew my mind just how many variations were listed on Brifisol's site!

EDIT: Just saw the Champion Juicer mention. I'd be really curious if you need any binder at all with one of those. I have one but have not run it yet...

I think a few of you would find it interesting that I am using STPP to make processed cheese. Pretty cool stuff.

View attachment 525987

Yeah i guess that's the fun part about it being hobby i will just have to find out and see how it goes. Reading the above article i feel like unless you have a pH meter subtle differences in moisture retention wont be noticed unless its measured by weight or other means. interesting cheese post? what involved in that just mixing different cheesees to make a cheese blend or processing cheese from scratch i have no experience in cheese making.