Correct me if I am wrong…
Collagen breakdown can begin as low as the 130s given enough time, due to enzymes, but accelerates heavily from 160F-180F. Nothing happens structurally to muscles or meat beyond 180-203F that I am aware of, other than overcooking.
My theory is that 203F is only correlated to the fact that all of the meat has been held at a temperature in this range (ie 170F or 180F) for sufficient duration so as to thoroughly melt the collagen (which masks overcooking), but not so long as to begin getting too much dried out meat and too much actin denaturatuon.
Maybe this is obvious, but the temperature seems to have no meaning in and of itself outside of a coincidental reference point as to when enough collagen breakdown has occurred, but not too much overcooking. A sweet spot by happenstance.
The point is, what if there is a better way? What if, once the meat reaches 170-180 where collagen is melting aggressively, we turn down the heat and do our best to hold meat as close to 180F not for 3 hours, but for another 6 hours+? We need the extra time because collagen breakdown would be slowed, but the meat wouldn’t go as high and dry and actin denaturation would be slower.
There are problems with this as well, though. Too much moisture loss? Too much bark? Or perhaps paramount, 180F is still higher than ideal for actin.
At the end of the day, doesn’t this make Sous vide que (Sous vide + smoke) - *if* done properly - theoretically a superior method?
I’ve perused many threads. Some say it’s the best they’ve had, others say smoking was better. But for those that have said smoking is better it seems they haven’t really deep dived experimentation and tuning.
I see no scientific reason why meat held at a consistent lower temperature to achieve collagen breakdown while minimizing actin denaturizarion and overcooking, and then finished with a smoke, should not produce superior results. For those who have said it wasn’t smoky enough with a reverse smoke, they seem to have only tried it once or twice. But you could smoke lower and longer than 2 hours for the reverse smoke. You could inject liquid smoke into the meat or just put it into the bag prior to SV and also finish with a smoke. Etc.
Full circle - am I missing something here? 203F is happenstance. A coincidental marker of sufficient duration of collagen breakdown that occurs at a much lower temp.. it’s basically the sweet spot of “over cooked… but not TOO overcooked”. So why not take our modern understandings and improve the way we think of traditional time and temp targets?
Collagen breakdown can begin as low as the 130s given enough time, due to enzymes, but accelerates heavily from 160F-180F. Nothing happens structurally to muscles or meat beyond 180-203F that I am aware of, other than overcooking.
My theory is that 203F is only correlated to the fact that all of the meat has been held at a temperature in this range (ie 170F or 180F) for sufficient duration so as to thoroughly melt the collagen (which masks overcooking), but not so long as to begin getting too much dried out meat and too much actin denaturatuon.
Maybe this is obvious, but the temperature seems to have no meaning in and of itself outside of a coincidental reference point as to when enough collagen breakdown has occurred, but not too much overcooking. A sweet spot by happenstance.
The point is, what if there is a better way? What if, once the meat reaches 170-180 where collagen is melting aggressively, we turn down the heat and do our best to hold meat as close to 180F not for 3 hours, but for another 6 hours+? We need the extra time because collagen breakdown would be slowed, but the meat wouldn’t go as high and dry and actin denaturation would be slower.
There are problems with this as well, though. Too much moisture loss? Too much bark? Or perhaps paramount, 180F is still higher than ideal for actin.
At the end of the day, doesn’t this make Sous vide que (Sous vide + smoke) - *if* done properly - theoretically a superior method?
I’ve perused many threads. Some say it’s the best they’ve had, others say smoking was better. But for those that have said smoking is better it seems they haven’t really deep dived experimentation and tuning.
I see no scientific reason why meat held at a consistent lower temperature to achieve collagen breakdown while minimizing actin denaturizarion and overcooking, and then finished with a smoke, should not produce superior results. For those who have said it wasn’t smoky enough with a reverse smoke, they seem to have only tried it once or twice. But you could smoke lower and longer than 2 hours for the reverse smoke. You could inject liquid smoke into the meat or just put it into the bag prior to SV and also finish with a smoke. Etc.
Full circle - am I missing something here? 203F is happenstance. A coincidental marker of sufficient duration of collagen breakdown that occurs at a much lower temp.. it’s basically the sweet spot of “over cooked… but not TOO overcooked”. So why not take our modern understandings and improve the way we think of traditional time and temp targets?
