Brisket - Corned beef and Pastrami

[BXMurphy]

[Pop] used lower salt and a longer cure time to tenderize the meats and so the wife didn’t have to pre soak or boil the meat to reduce the salt. Flavor. Pop’s brine process is now taken to the next level with refrigeration and equilibrium brining where weigh the water and meat and apply the percentage of salt and cure we ultimately want in the finished product. In this way we need to be in brine long enough, but if we go over time even another week, because life got in the way, the finished product is still exactly the salt level we wanted. It’s controlled brining. This gives you flexibility on time.

Boy, there's a lot to digest here, huh? Thank you for all that info, especially on equilibrium brining. I've read that term more than a few times but thought that ALL brines are equilibrium because when the brine soaks through, you have the same salt content in the brine and in the meat.

What you seem to be saying is that if I could calculate the amount of salt I wanted in my meat, I can make the appropriate brine.

Are you also saying that a lower salt brine takes longer to reach equilibrium than a higher salt brine? How can that be calculated?

Murph

 

[thirdeye]

Before I came to SMF, I was going through a site by a man nicknamed Meathead. He really kind of scared the daylights out of me with his precision. It seemed so complicated until I came here.

Dr. Greg Blonder is one of Meathead's sources when it comes to curing/brining or other science related tidbits including salt diffusion into meat which might give some insight into your questions for SmokinEdge in the post above. Here is a link to Blonder's site. I would agree he is a precision guy, and he's always thinking....

You might enjoy researching a couple of other food scientists, Harold McGee and Shirley Corriher. Shirley was often featured on Alton Brown's show and was one of his sources for food science. McGee is a chemistry and history of food science guy, and has made many contributions to the world of food over the years and has several books.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Boy, there's a lot to digest here, huh? Thank you for all that info, especially on equilibrium brining. I've read that term more than a few times but thought that ALL brines are equilibrium because when the brine soaks through, you have the same salt content in the brine and in the meat.

This is true to a point. The uptake in each piece of meat is different. Solid muscle like loin will update more than a fatty piece like pork belly. It really is a guess as to how much it will uptake. Things like fat content, freshness of the meat, if it has been previously frozen and for how long or how many times it went through a thaw freeze cycle all can change the way the meat interacts with the brine. If you start with a heavy brine, time becomes crucial to the finished product. You don’t want meat to come to equilibrium in a 10% salt brine, so knowing when to pull it out is key.

What you seem to be saying is that if I could calculate the amount of salt I wanted in my meat, I can make the appropriate brine.

Correct, and this is what I referred to as equilibrium brine. We calculate salt based on water and meat weight in percentage as to how we want the meat to finish no matter if it’s in brine 10 days or 30 days. Water weighs 8.33 pounds per gallon or 3781.82 grams. (454 grams per pound) So if we want a finished product at say 2% salt and that meat weight is 10 pounds (4540 grams) and we use 1 gallon water, we add 3781.82 + 4540 = 8321.82 grams multiply by 1.75% (0.0175)(salt in cure #1 is applied at 0.25% and should be accounted for) we have 145.63 grams salt. Then cure #1 at 0.25% (0.0025) so 8321.82 x 0.0025 = 20.8 grams. Combined salt is now 2%. The meat can never be over 2% salt no matter the brine time, and at 0.25% the cure #1 nitrite in the meat should not exceed 156ppm.

Are you also saying that a lower salt brine takes longer to reach equilibrium than a higher salt brine? How can that be calculated?

This is the part that takes trial and error. It’s not possible to calculate the rate of uptake in brine unless you inject. If you inject and then cover in brine the times are much more predictable. Around 4 days per inch of thickness or about 2 days per pound, but I would still try to hold most meats for 14- 20 days to allow for flavor development and the tenderizing effects of salt.

 

[thirdeye]

Boy, there's a lot to digest here, huh?

After wrapping your head around all this information, especially the explanation by SmokinEdge of how "weight" plays an important role with respect to the Cure #1..... you might ask yourself "What about the salt and sugar that go into the bucket ???"

Well, technically, and to be really, really, really accurate on the amount of Cure #1..., you could use the meat weight + water weight + salt & sugar weight + the weight of any aromatics to arrive at the absolute total weight of everything in the bucket. But most people just go with meat weight + water weight.

 

[jack l]

Hi all. I bought a 14.3 lb whole packer brisket and am making corned beef and pastrami out of it. This will take 1 week plus. Here are pics.

Cut into 3 pieces, and then put into a brining solution of pickling spices for 1 week. I will get it out and proceed with the next step in a week. Oh and if you try this make sure you drink lots of beer along the way.

I started following Jeff's recipe for smoke pastrami a few years back, and it has become a staple in our house to celebrate St. Patrick's Day (or close to that day).

I started my brining process on 02/19/23. I usually go with Jeff's recommendation of 10 days, but I do not plan to smoke the brisket until 03/11/23. My 10th day will be tomorrow (03/01/23), but wondering if I can go until Sunday 03/05/23, then freeze it until the 10th? I have it in about 3 gallons of brine with 2 gallons being water.

 

[Hijack73]

This is me: I am not a food safety expert by any means, so this is based on personal experience. If you got the right amounts of cure and salt and it's fully submerged AND your brine stays under 38 degrees you can safely go 4 weeks in a wet brine. 3 weeks is fine.

 

[BXMurphy]

There are rules and then exceptions. In the world of curing, which has roots hundreds and hundreds of years old, early methods were not approved by some governing body like they are today. The methods were proved and demonstrated to be reliable over time. So let's call those methods tried and true methods.

Pop's Father developed this 'real simple curing brine' and it was a tried and true method. But he took it one step further since this method was used in the family's store and custom meat market in New York state. Pop's Brine and the method were reviewed by the State of NY inspectors and approved for use. It is a lower strength brine and needs slightly longer brining times. However this improves flavor and texture in some meats.

I put this method under the heading of a 'universal curing method', much like the salt box dry curing method my Grandfather used. It does not exactly follow modern guidelines..... but it works.

So back to your question..... Pop's Brine uses a fixed amount of Cure #1 and allows for some personal adjustment of salt, sugar and any other aromatics. There are several versions of Pop's Brine as he and others experimented with salt and sugar, but the ratio of Cure #1 to water remained the same What is interesting is that it's generally recognized in curing circles that the safe amount of Cure #1 used in one gallon of water is between 1 tablespoon and 3.5 tablespoons. You can run hypothetical calculations and the result falls into the acceptable range.

In my eyes, the beauty of Pop's Brine is 1) It's proven to be reliable, and 2) It's easy to mix, and 3) I like using lower salt concentration brines (whether they are a flavor brine, a curing brine, or a corning brine) and longer brining times.

All that said, I make personal adjustments to Pop's Brine too. I'm on the lower end of his recommended amounts of salt and sugar, and I prefer white sugar to brown sugar.

~thirdeye~ version of Pop's Brine
This version is a low salt and less sweet mixture. I generally use it on chicken breasts or pork chops with a 15 to 24 hour brine time.

1 gallon of water
125 grams canning salt
25 grams white sugar
25 grams brown sugar
20 grams Cure #1 (heaping tablespoon)
3/4 teaspoon black pepper

Too funny.... I haven't done a corned beef since last year and I'm back, looking for help. And what did I find? This thread....

Thanks again, as always, Third Eye!

B