A few questions on brisket

[kryinggame]

I really want to try a brisket but the price of them in Charlotte is outrageous. I've been looking at "packers" at Wally world, the cheapest I've seen is $31.00.  At my local Costco, I've seen "flats" for about $20.00 (and they're not huge at all). 

Here are my concerns and questions:

1- If i broke down and went with a Packer, how technical is it separating the flat from the pointer?  I assume that the entire packer is made of two pieces, (i) the flat and the (ii) pointer. Is this correct?

2 - I've read that I shouldn't put my probe into the meat until after 4 hours.  Exactly why is this?

3 - Is the purpose of wrapping the beef to keep it moist (as does wrapping a pork butt)?

4 - Squirting. What do you squirt your meat with? For ribs and butts, I usually squirt with a combination of apple juice and apple cider?

5 - The most important question. If I freezethe brisket, will I damage it. I find that beef gets really dry once it's been frozen and then thawed out. 

Thanks all!

 

[confederateknowhow]

I really want to try a brisket but the price of them in Charlotte is outrageous. I've been looking at "packers" at Wally world, the cheapest I've seen is $31.00.  At my local Costco, I've seen "flats" for about $20.00 (and they're not huge at all). 

Here are my concerns and questions:

1- If i broke down and went with a Packer, how technical is it separating the flat from the pointer?  I assume that the entire packer is made of two pieces, (i) the flat and the (ii) pointer. Is this correct?

Separating the point from the flat is very easy. See write up here .Yes, a packer is the flat and the point.

2 - I've read that I shouldn't put my probe into the meat until after 4 hours.  Exactly why is this?

You want to wait to probe your meat to prevent the spreading of bacteria. 4 hours or when the outer 1/4" of meat reaches 140* Read more here

3 - Is the purpose of wrapping the beef to keep it moist (as does wrapping a pork butt)?

Yes, wrapping in foil will help hold in moisture, but is optional.

4 - Squirting. What do you squirt your meat with? For ribs and butts, I usually squirt with a combination of apple juice and apple cider?

There are many recipes for bastes. Some people do, some dont, again, entirely up to you and your taste buds

5 - The most important question. If I freezethe brisket, will I damage it. I find that beef gets really dry once it's been frozen and then thawed out. 

As long as you take steps to prevent freezer burn, it should be okay. Most packers come cryovaced and very well sealed.

Thanks all!

Hope this helps! Good luck with the 'que!

 

[rbranstner]

I've added my notes to yours below in red. Again there are my personal preferences and everyone has their own so what I like might not be what the next guy likes. Experimentation is the key and find out what you like and stick with that.

I really want to try a brisket but the price of them in Charlotte is outrageous. I've been looking at "packers" at Wally world, the cheapest I've seen is $31.00.  At my local Costco, I've seen "flats" for about $20.00 (and they're not huge at all). 

Here are my concerns and questions:

1- If i broke down and went with a Packer, how technical is it separating the flat from the pointer?  I assume that the entire packer is made of two pieces, (i) the flat and the (ii) pointer. Is this correct? (You are correct a full packer is the point an the flat. Also separating them  isn't that hard at all. I started by separating them before I cooked them and that was a little challenging for me as it can be a little hard to find the fat layer that separates the two the first couple of times. Then I started separating them once they were cooked that that is easy. That fat layer is nice and soft and once you put a knife in there it slides between the two pieces like nothing.)

2 - I've read that I shouldn't put my probe into the meat until after 4 hours.  Exactly why is this?(I believe there are a couple of reasons. First being that if you don't insert anything into the meat (probe, injection needle, etc.) then you still have intact meat and you don't have to get the internal temp up to 140 degrees within 4 hours you just need to get the outside 1/4-1/2 inch or so past that temp which is much easier to do. And another reason which I have run into several times when I probe the meat right away is my thermometer will be coming up an then all of a sudden stop and stay at the same temp. I assumed it was stuck on the stall but when I when and pulled the probe out and probed it again the meat was much higher in temp then it was reading when it was stuck. This has happen to me several times and ever since  I started probing after a few hours I don't seem to have that issue. Call me me crazy but that happened to me on several occasions.)

3 - Is the purpose of wrapping the beef to keep it moist (as does wrapping a pork butt)? (It helps keep it moist but it mainly helps it cook faster. It's a personal preference thing. Some swear by foiling and some swear by going without any foil.)

4 - Squirting. What do you squirt your meat with? For ribs and butts, I usually squirt with a combination of apple juice and apple cider? (I personally don't spritz my meat but again that's a personal preference thing. Stick with what you like.)

5 - The most important question. If I freezethe brisket, will I damage it. I find that beef gets really dry once it's been frozen and then thawed out. (I buy them all the time and freeze them. I buy ribs, chicken, prime rib, chuckies, brisket, etc. whenever it's on sale and freeze it for later and I can't ever remember having a issue with it drying out unless it happens to get freezer burnt. As long as it's vacuum sealed or wrapped in freezer paper I haven't had an issue. If they come vacuum sealed from the store I just throw that right into the freezer but that's just me.)

Thanks all!

 

[smokinhusker]

Great answers! Good luck. I too was afraid of not being able to separate the flat and point, no problem after it was cooked and used a really long, flat sharp knife.

 

[oldschoolbbq]

Kryingame, some great answers , and all workable , I just have a thing against opening the Smoker while my meat is in doing it's thing (just me???) Also, I use alchol wipes to wipe my probe both before and after use , so in prespective , I can probe when going in the smoke and leave it closed, that's your option,however , proof is in the pudding:

Same for anything I Smoke:

find your grove and learn your Smoker-hot spots, where fuel combust better,and control of heat/smoke. Don't be intimidated,get in there and just "do it".

Have fun and as always...

 

[forluvofsmoke]

I really want to try a brisket but the price of them in Charlotte is outrageous. I've been looking at "packers" at Wally world, the cheapest I've seen is $31.00.  At my local Costco, I've seen "flats" for about $20.00 (and they're not huge at all).  Price per pound, and if it's trimmed or untrimmed are what you need to look at. A whole packer, untrimmed should be less cost per pound than a trimmed brisket.

Here are my concerns and questions:

1- If i broke down and went with a Packer, how technical is it separating the flat from the pointer?  I assume that the entire packer is made of two pieces, (i) the flat and the (ii) pointer. Is this correct? It's really not very technical...just look for the muscle grain direction to determine which muscle it is. There is a thin fat layer and membrane between the two muscles. The point muscle grain runs across the packer, while the flat muscle grain runs lengthwise the packer. The point is the thickest end of the packer, and the two muscles intersect/overlap each other with a taper in the thickness of each muscle towards the center of the packer.

Here's a few different looks at how I have separated the point/flat cuts, pre-smoked and mid-smoke...

Partially frozen packer, pre-smoked:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/105288/2-packers-go-to-pastrami-school-q-view-2-recipes-methods

Thawed packer, pre-smoke separation:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/...ed-beef-brisket-methods-recipe-q-view-maximus

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/98672/12lb-brisket-in-brinky-gourmet-trim-separation-w-q-view

Mid-smoke packer separation for pulled point and sliced flat:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/105105/i-dream-of-brisket-big-brisket-progressive-q-view

Mid-smoke separation for burnt fingers and pulled flat:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/90615/had-any-burnt-fingers-or-pulled-flat-lately-brisket-q-vew

Mid-smoke separation for burnt ends and sliced flat:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/...riskets-burnt-ends-taters-in-the-vault-q-view

2 - I've read that I shouldn't put my probe into the meat until after 4 hours.  Exactly why is this? By not probing too early or injecting marinades, you can maintain the intact whole muscle nature of the packer. This allows for less restrictive cooking times/temps regarding the danger zone. If you probe too early for internal temps, you could force any bacteria on the surface of the meat to become imbedded deep into the muscle with the probe, where temps will remain in the danger zone longer.

3 - Is the purpose of wrapping the beef to keep it moist (as does wrapping a pork butt)? Wrapping foil will reduce cooking time, if you so choose, but also softens the bark on the surface. Foiling (and oftentimes wrapping in towels) is a standard practice to rest the meat before slicing or pulling. Resting allows the meat's natural juices to redistribute throughout the muscle for more uniform moisture content of the finished product.

4 - Squirting. What do you squirt your meat with? For ribs and butts, I usually squirt with a combination of apple juice and apple cider? Personally, I don't add liquids to the meat during the smoke. It increases cooking time by loosing heat form the smoke chamber, and also by cooling the meat's surface when the liquid contacts it. Benefits of spraying are negligible, IMHO, and may actually cause the meat to become drier at higher finished temps due to keeping the meat's surface porous allowing more internal moisture evaporation.

5 - The most important question. If I freezethe brisket, will I damage it. I find that beef gets really dry once it's been frozen and then thawed out. All flesh will have liquid purge from the muscle when it thaws, some species and cuts may purge a bit more than others, though I rarely smoke a brisket or other meats that I did not store in the freezer. What you should avoid is taking a previously frozen meat and re-freeze it without cooking or processing it in some manner. That's a double-whammy on liquid purge, and may cause a drier finished product. If you have a cut that was frozen, you can cook it, then freeze again to serve at a later date after reheating...no problem, if properly packaged for storage.

Thanks all!

Hope this helps take the edge off for you. Brisket may seem like a difficult cut to smoke the first time, and yes, if you don't have a good understanding of what to expect during the smoke, you may get overwhelmed by the time you reach finished temps. Once you get the smoker fired up, maintain as steady of temps as you can, and give the brisket it's due time to cook...be patient.

I discussed many tips and preferences I shoot for depending on what I want for finished products in the above threads, so you can choose which route to go from there.

Let us know if there's something else you'd like to clarify before you get started.

Eric

EDIT: I'm getting too slow for you guys!!! You're covered, kryinggame!

 

[kryinggame]

WOW!!!! Look at all of this information.  My god. you guys AND GALS  rock!

I'm going to try to find a video on separating the 2 pieces. Seems like that's the most difficult part. 

So I fully understand (I'm sorry, I always over thing things) I just want to confirm the following.

I'll buy the huge, long piece of beef which is known as a Packer.

I cut it into two pieces. The 2 pieces are known as the Flat and the Pointer.

There should not be any other pieces of the beef left. It's simply cut into 2 pieces. 

If so, for slicing, should both pieces (the flat and the pointer) be cooked to 190 - 200 degrees? 

And finally, I hear that the pointer is tougher and not as moist. Is this true and if so, what are the tricks to getting it good.

Again, thank you all

 

[smokinhusker]

My first brisket weighed in at a little over 16 lbs and I followed Forluvofsmoke (Eric) brisket thread and mine was pretty stress free and turned out delicious. 

 

[kryinggame]

SmokinHusker, by the way thanks for your advice/suggestion on jerky.  It came out so good (a bit salty) but delicious. Actually, I may smoke some more this weekend.

 

[rbranstner]

Another note: I was going to mention that that on my first couple of briskets I separated the point from the flat and trimmed them up pretty well and had great juicy results. With that said the past few briskets I have done I left it whole and left most of the fat on then separated them after it was cooked and my results were even better. All that extra fat that is inside the two pieces holding them together breaks down and gives it a great flavor and seems to give it so much more moisture. I have decided that if I have room I won't ever separate a point/flat until it is cooked again. Not only did I like the flavor and texture better but I though it was much easier to separate the two once they were cooked.  That's just me though. Try it both ways and see which you prefer. Half the fun with this smoking hobby is experimenting.

 

[forluvofsmoke]

WOW!!!! Look at all of this information.  My god. you guys AND GALS  rock!

I'm going to try to find a video on separating the 2 pieces. Seems like that's the most difficult part. 

So I fully understand (I'm sorry, I always over thing things) I just want to confirm the following.

I'll buy the huge, long piece of beef which is known as a Packer. Yes, untrimmed being the best, allowing for you to trim to your preference for whatever finished product you desire at the time. Packers are extremely versatile cuts, offering a variety of tasty treats from the smoker, from pulled flat (yes, I have actually done pulled flat), to burnt ends/fingers from the point, pulled point, sliced point, and sliced flat. And, there's Corned Beef Pastrami from scratch, but that's for another thread. I always buy whole, untrimmed packers...that way, no matter what I want to make with brisket, I'll have what I need.

I cut it into two pieces. The 2 pieces are known as the Flat and the Pointer. Flat and Point. You can smoke it whole, and separate the point from the flat mid-smoke, or, separate them while raw...smoked whole is easiest to separate, but takes much longer to cook. Either method has it's own set of merits, and some folks prefer one over the other for various reasons.

There should not be any other pieces of the beef left. It's simply cut into 2 pieces.  You may choose to trim the fat cap off of the point, as it has plenty of interior fat to keep it moist while smoking (this is the best if you plan on making burnt ends from the point), while the fat cap should be left on the flat cut for aiding in moisture retention during the smoke. As you get more comfortable with brisket, you may opt for heavy trimming of the flat for more bark on the meat, but this requires more attention to finished temps, smoke chamber humidity control, etc.

If so, for slicing, should both pieces (the flat and the pointer) be cooked to 190 - 200 degrees?  200* will be super-tender...actually too tender for slicing. I poke around a bit to probe for tenderness at ~180* internal temp, and if I feel much resistance, I go to 185-190* and poke around some more. I've never had one that wouldn't provide tender slices at 190*.

And finally, I hear that the pointer is tougher and not as moist. Is this true and if so, what are the tricks to getting it good. The main differences between the point and flat muscles are that the point is a tubular muscle construction with much more inter-muscular fat when compared to the flat. Also, the flat is fibrous muscle, with a much leaner interior, and get dried out if taken to too high of finished temperature. They are both very tough muscles, and require slow cooking to get tender.

Again, thank you all

Here's a look at the differences in the muscle construction of the point and flat...

Sliced flat..notice how tight the meat fibers are bonded together throughout the muscle with no membranes separating different muscle bundles, and a very lean interior (fully cooked for slicing here):

And, the point...notice the various muscle fiber bundles (they have very thin membranes holding them together), and the fat which separates each bundle on most sides of the cross-section (partially cooked @ ~ 160* here, just starting to cube into burnt ends for a second smoke):

Eric