#2 cure in an equilibrium brine

[Lolley]

Done a lot of equilibrium brining with #1 cure and dry curing with #2 cure, what I can't seem to find is information on using #2 cure in a brine.

Do I just use 10.25% in my calculator (6.25% + 4% = 10,25%) to get PPM numbers?, are the PPM (parts per million) limits based on just the nitrites? or do you figure in the nitrates as well.

Anyone use #2 cure in their equilibrium brines?

I just joined this forum and must admit that I haven't done a search on here yet for my answer, call me lazy, blast me if you must, or provide an answer, all will be accepted.

 

[Lolley]

This is a quote from USDA site:

"Wet Curing or Brine Cure

Brine curing is the most popular way to produce hams. It is a wet cure whereby fresh meat is injected with a curing solution before cooking. Brining ingredients can include ingredients such as salt, sugar, sodium nitrite, sodium nitrate, sodium erythorbate, sodium phosphate, potassium chloride, water and flavorings. Smoke flavoring (liquid smoke) may also be injected with brine solution. Cooking may occur during this process."

Since it's listed under the "Wet Curing or Brine Cure" and it says it's OK to inject the meat with nitrite and nitrate, I assume that it's OK to brine with nitrite and nitrate. So every time I read "#2 cure can't be used in brine curing", I just scratch my head and move on. Of course this is meant to be cooked afterward.

I'm looking for someone who has done this, as the nitrates supposedly add a distinct flavor similar to the flavor you get from some dry cured products with "unconverted nitrates" still left in them.

I'm not sure if that much unconverted nitrates is why it's bad to brine with, (because you don't have the time involved to convert the nitrates to nitrites like you would with a long term dry cure) or if there is some other reason. Then again, it does say you can inject nitrates into a cooking ham , it just doesn't say at what percentage.

Of course it would be nice if one could brine cure a country ham or something with the shelf life of a #2 dry cured product without having to dry cure it.

I think I'm going to try an equilibrium brine with #2 and use my cure % as 10.25% for the proper PPM. (as stated in my first post)

"how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop drop?"

I'll keep you posted,

 

[daveomak]

I assume that it's OK to brine with nitrite and nitrate.

Lolley, morning.... First, NEVER ASSUME ... Second, Cure #2 should only be used in meats that are not cooked...

Add/calculate cure #2 to meat the same as you add cure #1 to meat... You only figure in the nitrite when you add it... The nitrate adds itself as nitrite when the "good" bacteria converts it to nitrite...

I would NOT use cure #2 in a brine/cure solution... like you say, "You can't find a USDA recipe for brining using cure #2"...

 

[Lolley]

First off, thanks for replying, I've read a lot of your posts and know that you are experienced, I was taught at a young age not to fry meat that had #2 in it, but never heard anything about not cooking it at all. The quote from USDA clearly states that you can inject (an unknown %) of sodium nitrate into a ham that can be cooked, so once again, let the confusion begin.

About the PPM, if the 4% nitrate in the #2 converts to 4% nitrite in the finished product, wouldn't your total after conversion be 10.25% nitrite?, leaving a higher PPM value than just entering 6.25% as cure% when you calculate.

Part of my problem is that I'm an Engineering Consultant and all I do is analyze crap all day, so when I read "don't cook #2" or "don't brine with #2", I need to know why not.

 

[daveomak]

My error... I "assumed" you were after a traditional use of cure #2.....

nitrate remains nitrate until all the nitrite has dissipated and bacteria takes over.. then the nitrate converts to nitrite to continue protecting the meat.. at least that's my understanding of the reaction... nitrate converts s-l-o-w-l-y for a long term preservation during the drying process... like prosciutto... etc. that are eaten "as is" once dried...
Drying, aging meats, is a process where you do not want to add moisture...

Anyhow, you can add cure #2 to any meats you like.. The process where it is "most" desired is long term dry aging...

Folks add Morten's Tender Quick to meats all the time... The USDA doesn't recommend it... Soooo.....

My recommendation............ Don't add Coca-Cola to Jack Daniels... LOL ....

 

[chef jimmyj]

Nitrate adds no special flavor to dry cured meat because it is converted to Nitrite by bacteria. Nitrate at 4% is not normally cumulative to the 6.25% Nitrite because over time, the intended use of #2, the 6.25% Nitrite dissipates and is replaced by the converted Nitrite from nitrate.
What are you trying to accomplish? You are never going to get a brine injected ham to taste like a dry cured country ham. Same for Brined anything vs it's Dry Cured counterpart. The flavor in dry cured meat is not from the Nitrate, the flavor is from dehydration combined with enzymatic and some bacterial changes taking place in and on the surface of the meat. Nitrate just allows for months or years of storage at 55 degrees to take place without the growth of Clostridium Botulinum in ground meat dry cured sausage like Salami or a cased whole muscle like Coppa...JJ

 

[Lolley]

Thanks for the replies, I guess I was trying to find out why it was such a no-no in the brine curing world, I mainly use #2 in dried sausage which I've been making for almost 30 years. I was told about the flavor thing by a guy I met recently that said the reason he put nitrates in his cooking ham brine was to impart a slightly different flavor. He said I should try it and I said I was worried about the "no #2 cure in a brine" thing. I didn't want to trust this guy so I decide to find out if anyone else has done this and if there was any ill effects from doing so. After reading the USDA verbiage about allowing it to be injected into a cooking ham I think I will give it a try.

I also wanted to get something out on the old interweb about this subject, I searched every which way and nothing would come up on the subject (except the "don't do it" thing), at least now if someone googles "#2 cure in an equilibrium brine", this thread will be at the top of the list.