can i sub corn syrup solids for dextrose?

[rc4u]

i do know proper amounts are differrent. i am wanting to make len polis german farmer summer sausage. German Farmer-style Summer Sausage (50webs.com)

 

[zwiller]

No. I think CSS barely ferments at all. Table sugar would be a much better sub but still not fully fermentable like dextrose. Grab some from a brewing supply place, it's cheap. Also, dextrose is commonly called corn sugar so you might find it at other places under that name.

 

[chopsaw]

Good info . I bought Corn sugar at Friar Tucks . They have a brewing area .

 

[SmokinEdge]

Corn syrup solids have a DE (dextrose equivalent) in a range of 20 to maybe 50. Meaning CSS contain 20-50% of the fermentable sugars as dextrose, so no they really aren’t interchangeable.

Generally I like Poli’s recipes, but this one has a couple red flags,
1) the salt is only about 1.5%
2) it has no starter culture or ECA but calls for a fermentation period at 80*F. This could be dangerous because you are dependent on natural bacteria to initiate fermentation. Not a good idea generally.

 

[zwiller]

Funny you posted Rich chopsaw . That recipe looks right up our alley! I looked at that recipe again and no culture... SmokinEdge BEAT ME. I know it can be done but wonder if that is a intentional or an omission?

I think they might have corn sugar at health food stores and the like. Grab some, it will last a long time and best tool for the job.

SNIP for the tech info
Sugar is mainly added to provide food for starter cultures. The pH drop in sausage depends on the type and amount of sugar utilized. Introduction of more sugar generally leads to lower pH and stronger acidification. What is notable is that lactic bacteria process different sugars differently. Only dextrose (glucose) can be fermented directly into lactic acid and by all lactic bacteria. Other sugars molecular structure must be broken down until monosaccharides are produced and this takes time and some lactic bacteria are more effective than others. Sugar introduction also helps to offset the sourly and tangy flavor of fast and medium-fermented sausages and acts as a minor hurdle in lowering water activity. The types of sugar which may be used in making fermented sausages are listed in order of their importance on producing lactic acid by lactic acid bacteria:

• glucose - "dextrose" is glucose sugar refined from corn starch which is approximately 70% as sweet as sucrose but it has an advantage of being directly fermented into lactic acid and is the fasted acting sugar for lowering pH. As lowering pH is the main hurdle against bacteria growth in fast-fermented sausages, dextrose is obviously the sugar of choice. It can be easily obtained from all sausage equipment and supplies companies.
• sucrose - common sugar (also colled saccharose) made from sugar cane and sugar beets but also appears in fruit, honey, sugar maple and in many other sources. It is the second fastest acting sugar. It can be used with GDL in medium-fermented sausages. In slow-fermented sausages common sugar should be chosen as it has been used for hundreds of years. There is no need to lower fast pH and sugar contributes better to a strong curing color and better flavor.
• maltose - malt sugar is made from germinating cereals such as barley, is an important part of the brewing process. It's added mainly to offset sour flavor and to lower water activity.
• actose - also referred to as milk sugar is found most notably in milk. Lactose makes up around 2-8% of milk (by weight). Maltose and lactose are less important as primary fermenting sugars but may be used in combinations with common sugar to bring extra flavor.

 

[chopsaw]

. That recipe looks right up our alley!

Sam , I did that one awhile back . I used all pork . Hung over night at room temp . Smoked then cooked . Great flavor .

 

[rc4u]

thanks all i will get dextrose before i make it. GOOD INFO FOR FUTURE. i will make some polish or brats .. lots of non fermenting sausages seem to use dextrose..

 

[chopsaw]

lots of non fermenting sausages seem to use dextrose..

I use it in breakfast sausage to help with browning , and it's not as sweet as sugar .

 

[indaswamp]

thanks all i will get dextrose before i make it. GOOD INFO FOR FUTURE. i will make some polish or brats .. lots of non fermenting sausages seem to use dextrose..

The reason for the use of dextrose in non fermented sausages is because dextrose does not burn as easily as other sugars. So when frying, grilling, or smoking the links, you will have less charred bitter taste.

 

[indaswamp]

Corn syrup solids have a DE (dextrose equivalent) in a range of 20 to maybe 50. Meaning CSS contain 20-50% of the fermentable sugars as dextrose, so no they really aren’t interchangeable.

Generally I like Poli’s recipes, but this one has a couple red flags,
1) the salt is only about 1.5%
2) it has no starter culture or ECA but calls for a fermentation period at 80*F. This could be dangerous because you are dependent on natural bacteria to initiate fermentation. Not a good idea generally.

Germans don't use starter cultures in general. I'm not sure why he is "incubating" the sausage unless he is trying to speed the enzymatic breakdown of proteins and fats. The sausage is heat treated through a cooking process immediately after though. But I still would not use only 1.5% salt....just too low to be safe.....IMO. 2% salt would be the absolute lowest I would go, and I'd use a culture.

 

[indaswamp]

FYI-
Dextrose has a 98% conversion rate to Lactic acid. Sucrose is 89%.

 

[indaswamp]

• glucose - "dextrose" is glucose sugar refined from corn starch which is approximately 70% as sweet as sucrose but it has an advantage of being directly fermented into lactic acid and is the fasted acting sugar for lowering pH. As lowering pH is the main hurdle against bacteria growth in fast-fermented sausages, dextrose is obviously the sugar of choice. It can be easily obtained from all sausage equipment and supplies companies.
• sucrose - common sugar (also colled saccharose) made from sugar cane and sugar beets but also appears in fruit, honey, sugar maple and in many other sources. It is the second fastest acting sugar. It can be used with GDL in medium-fermented sausages. In slow-fermented sausages common sugar should be chosen as it has been used for hundreds of years. There is no need to lower fast pH and sugar contributes better to a strong curing color and better flavor.

Good info zwiller...
I have started using two sugar sources to fuel fermentation when I use TSPX. I check the pH then use enough dextrose to drop the pH down to 5.5 fast. This offers significant protection yet still allows the Staph bacteria time to work in a more favorable environment (between pH5.0-5.5) for color formation and flavor development before the pH drops below 5.2. The sucrose will slowly be converted to lactic acid.
Cristano Creminelli follows the same methodology, but uses maltose to slow fermentation down even slower. I have not played around with that yet....

 

[SmokinEdge]

Just some reading on the subject from Marianski.

 

[indaswamp]

....0.86 conversion for sucrose...my bad for going off memory. Thanks for posting that SE!

 

[zwiller]

indaswamp Pretty dang close to me!

No culture ferment is a no for me. Simple ferments work, doesn't take much. I've done table sugar and both yogurt and buttermilk. Simple and effective. Tastes much better than fermento to me. Never tried ECA as it does not jive with my methods. Interesting that Poli says "incubate" and not ferment.

 

[SmokinEdge]

“Incubation “ is the process of growing or developing something. In this case this would be bacteria.
Poli is advocating growing or developing bacteria at 80*F for 48 hours. That with no culture (acidification) added, and 1.5% salt. This is dangerous. I would skip this step all together in this recipe, or I would add culture, and/or salt to 2.5-3% with weak or no culture.

He is thermal processing immediately at the end, but that’s after we incubate unknown bacteria. That still nuts!

 

[indaswamp]

Yep. Thermal processing at 80*F is NEVER done with traditional method making salami without a culture. ALWAYS done below 60*F...54-60 to be precise....