Sodium Erythorbate Dry Rub Test

[SmokinEdge]

There was discussion in another thread that turned to sodium erythorbate (NaE) being used in a dry rub with cure #1. There are some dry rub cures out there that contain both. One from Waltons and one from Backwoods and I’m sure others. Many of the top shelf sausage mixes also contain NaE but as far as I can tell these don’t contain cure #1 but some may.

At any rate, I posted that I had started an experiment yesterday dry curing 3# of CRS that are about 2”x2”x5ish inch. I used my basic cure mix recipe but added .05% sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and .05% NaE. Initially I said I would let them cure 10-12 days then do a cut shot, but then I thought since this is an experiment I will cut one and cook it today at 24hrs for reference, then one at 5 days then the rest at 10 days. I will post pictures of each and post as we go along.

Stay tuned if interested. First cut shot coming in about 2 hours.

Thanks for stopping by.

 

[Fueling Around]

and watching ... waiting

 

[SmokinEdge]

This is the dry rub recipe I used here.

3# x 454= 1362g meat.

Cure #1) 3.4g (.25%)

Salt) 20.43g (1.5%)

Sugar) 10.2g. (.75%)

Baking soda) .68g. (.05%)

NaE) .68g. (.05%)

Granulated garlic and cracked black pepper by eyeball.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Here it is after 24 hours in dry cure with the addition of NaE. I see no grey through out. These were cooked to an IT of 160F. I’m stunned.

In the bag.

Raw cut shot.

Sliced and fried to 160F

The flavor is good. More salty on exterior pieces and more mild on interior pieces but over all it tastes like my bacon not smoked. I don’t know what to say here. Other than to say that it appears that sodium erythorbate intact drives the cure.

Your thoughts?

 

[SmokinEdge]

There really is not any grey meat internal after 24 hours. It will only get better from here, but NaE in this case seems to not only speed up the cure but also drives it into the meat. I guess this is why they use it in brines as cover pickle.

 

[DougE]

I have nothing of value to add, but following along. If it indeed drives the cure as you say, then it's valuable information to have.

 

[SmokinEdge]

I have nothing of value to add, but following along. If it indeed drives the cure as you say, then it's valuable information to have.

Thank you Doug. Not really a matter of what I say. There are pictures of 24 hour cured pork. This was 2”x2” thick. Just dry rubbed. I know pictures are hard to make judgments on sometimes but I assure you there is no grey meat anywhere. This so far is blowing the lid. From here the cure will only set better.

Maybe I should cut and fry another one at 48 hours.

 

[DougE]

Question I have is does it also speed flavor development? We know that the bacon we hold in cure for 14 days, or there about is fully cured quite a bit before that, but we hold it longer for flavor development.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Question I have is does it also speed flavor development? We know that the bacon we hold in cure for 14 days, or there about is fully cured quite a bit before that, but we hold it longer for flavor development.

The flavor here is throughout the meat. I was amazed. I think it does need more time, but what I’m puzzled with is how fast the salt and cure pushed all the way in. I really expected a grey center, but it just wasn’t the case. I’m going to apply this and do more trial and error. This is something to follow through on for sure.

 

[DougE]

Be a definite plus if you could manage getting the same results in a week with what now has us going two. Not that I'm pressed for time or anything, but the curing bacon does take up space in the fridge for a couple weeks as I now do it.

 

[Fueling Around]

...
The flavor is good. More salty on exterior pieces and more mild on interior pieces but over all it tastes like my bacon not smoked.
...
Your thoughts?

So the salt has not reached equilibrium but the nitrite has penetrated enough to give the "cured" bacon flavor.
Not a question but thinking out loud.
I read in one of the curing books (not a Marianski series) that nitrite curing and flavoring penetrates meat faster than the color fixing. Not sure if I believe that as I did a batch of pork loin that I didn't cure long enough and it had a 1/4" grey center. I could taste it or maybe my eyes told me I could taste it?
I'm thinking the NaE (and its color fixating) with the nitrite is doing both in this test case.

This is valuable to me being I go 1% or less salt and curing time is always doubled due to the lack of sodium to enhance the nitrite penetration.

 

[SmokinEdge]

So the salt has not reached equilibrium but the nitrite has penetrated enough to give the "cured" bacon flavor.
Not a question but thinking out loud.
I read in one of the curing books (not a Marianski series) that nitrite curing and flavoring penetrates meat faster than the color fixing. Not sure if I believe that as I did a batch of pork loin that I didn't cure long enough and it had a 1/4" grey center. I could taste it or maybe my eyes told me I could taste it?
I'm thinking the NaE (and its color fixating) with the nitrite is doing both in this test case.

This is valuable to me being I go 1% or less salt and curing time is always doubled due to the lack of sodium to enhance the nitrite penetration.

Very small sample and run, but that said, this is looking like a game changer, and we are only 24 hours in.

Yes, flavor is usually ahead of color development, but here we have both in a very fast window of time.
Much more testing to be done, but this is very promising in many ways.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Here we are at day 5. Flavor is balanced and cure is complete.

Since I’m experimenting, I went ahead and put a pork loin down with the same dry rub including NaE. This is after 36 hours. Terrible pics but you can just faintly see some grey in the center. The cure hasn’t got all the way there yet, but I’m guessing that at 48 hours it mostly will be.

Fried to 160F you really can’t see it, but flavor is not there yet in center but is good midway out.

I also have some buckboard bacon in the same cure. At day 5 these will be ready to smoke. I use NaE in all my curing except dry rub. That’s going to change now. I’m sold and can see that the addition of erythorbate to dry rub works. I’m not so concerned with speeding the cure as I will still cure for 10-14 days, but it’s nice to know I could smoke at day 5 or 7 if I needed to.

I hope this is helpful to some of you, and I hope you all give it a try, you won’t be disappointed.

 

[Fueling Around]

Summer project for me.

 

[daveomak]

What is Sodium Erythorbate (E316) in Food and Why it can Accelerate Curing in Meat Products?

Learn more the Antioxidant - Sodium Erythorbate (E316), from production, uses in food (processed meat), safety, side effects and some FAQs.

foodadditives.net

 

[daveomak]

Sodium erythorbate is used commercially to speed up the curing process in sausage...
It must be used in a sealed environment like sausage casing or a plastic bag...
The cure #1 immediately starts off gassing nitric oxide breaking down the cure#1... It's the nitric oxide that cures the meat...
The meat doesn't take on the depth of flavor if it is not allowed to bloom with the added spices etc...

 

[SmokinEdge]

The cure #1 immediately starts off gassing nitric oxide

Not so Dave. Did you read all of my thread? I’ve done my own testing and that testing does not prove true to your statement. Thus the reason I did the testing. Erythorbate is NOT an instantiated cure accelerator. Ascorbic acid is, but erythorbate is not.

 

[daveomak]

Here it is after 24 hours in dry cure with the addition of NaE. I see no grey through out. These were cooked to an IT of 160F. I’m stunned.

So, how long did it take to penetrate the first 1/4" or so...
It must have immediately started reacting with the cure#1.
The reaction had to start somewhere...

Mix some erythorbate in water and add to cure#1 and watch... Let us know how long the reaction takes to start... The off gassing of nitric oxide... It should immediately start to bubble...
The nitric oxide takes time to penetrate the meat fully...

1. Curing accelerator: it accelerates the curing process of meat and fish products by speed up the development of the pink color.
2. It is an antioxidant that can converts nitrite to nitric oxide, thereby speeding up this conversion and increasing the color of meat products.
3. It is always be added together with curing salt (nitrites/nitrates). Potassium or sodium salts of nitrate and nitrite act as a curing agent while sodium erythorbate accelerates the rate of curing by cutting down the processing time.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Ok, so this prompted me to do an experiment. I was going to town for groceries this morning so I picked up a few things not on hand. Namely orange juice and vitamin C tablets.
Marianski says you can use crushed up vitamin C tablets but because of the ascorbic acid this should be mixed in at the very last, (I think this may be where some confuse this with S. Erythorbate.) Now he doesn’t say what mg tablets but does say to apply at .1% to meat weight.

So I mixed up three concoctions. One with 100% pure orange juice, one with crushed vitamin C tablets that contained 500mg of C I used 1g of the powder mixed with about 50ml water. Then one with 50ml water and 1g of sodium erythorbate. To each of these I applied 2.5g of cure #1, the correct amount for 1Kg of meat. Here is what happened.

The OJ fizzed unimpressively, but still you could clearly see the nitrite was burning off.

The C tablets mixture foamed aggressively and almost instantly. This was a very definite reaction.

The S. Erythorbate mixture I’m still waiting to see a reaction. Zip, zero, nada.

After seeing these reactions I can say do not mix either fruit juice neither vitamin C with liquid containing nitrites.

I may test wine next.

Edit to add:

I Did the same test with some nice Chianti red wine that I use in some sausages. The results of nitrite reaction were very close to that of OJ although it took just a few seconds longer to react.

Mix some erythorbate in water and add to cure#1 and watch... Let us know how long the reaction takes to start... The off gassing of nitric oxide... It should immediately start to bubble...
The nitric oxide takes time to penetrate the meat fully...

 

[SmokinEdge]

Afternoon daveomak ,
I always appreciate your posts, in fact welcome them.

I have done the testing on different forms of vitamin C, see the post above, when I noticed that Waltons and Backwoods seasoning both had NaE in their bacon dry rub cure with nitrite added this got my squirrel cage moving thinking about possibilities. Granted my testing is small with dry rub nitrite cure mix plus NaE but the evidence is pretty easy to see. Ascorbic acid is a completely different animal in terms of reaction with nitrite as I have noted.

I always wondered why some recommended the addition of NaE to brines as cover pickle, I figured that was counter productive, but apparently it’s not and will work just fine. The meats I have put into cure are all curing perfectly with the NaE addition. When NaE is dissolved in water and cure #1 is added, no discernible reaction happens even after 10 minutes. Citrus juice or wine are much more reactive.