There Is A Difference Between Low And Slow And Lower And Slower

[Rings Я Us]

I actually had to look up what an ECB is. Turns out my mother-in-law had one of those years ago. At that time I was a bit intimidated by smoking and never asked her if I could use it. But isn't it similar to the WSM? When you add wood chunks it should smoke up with some nice bark but then the slow cooker would soften it up. So you're right about "just not the same bark". Did you see Jeff's article on his recommended ECB mods?

I did most all the mods and then some, yep.. I get 15 hours on a load of charcoal . Can run 100 to 500 temps

 

[chilerelleno]

I have to ask... Do you really make such a small batch of rub?


LOL... The way I sling rub that might do one side of a rack.

I tend to lay it on thick and sloppy, rub off any excess and be messy about it. :biggrin:


My minimum is

1C Brown Sugar

.5C Lawry's Seasoned Salt

1/3C each Paprika, Garlic and Onion powders

To which I might add

1/4C each Black and Cayenne peppers

ONE QUARTER CUP OF BOTH BLACK AND CAYENNE PEPPERS????? My wife would be game enough to try one bite of something made with that rub, declare it way too hot, and then would find something else to eat for dinner. 

Oops, yep that's a brainfarted/typo.
Thanks, it's supposed to be 1/8C or 2.5T to be exact.

 

[sqwib]

I have done this experiment myself. Bare in mind this is on a stickburner.

The Sacrificial Picnic

And to be quite honest I could never tell a difference from a 225-250 butt/picnic compared to a 275+ cook

Everything breaks down fine, however in more extreme temp variations I can see this being true. Now, on Ribs, I think they benefit much more to run them at a lower temp.

I haven't done enough Briskets or Chucks to say for sure if this is the case for them as well. But I think Briskets should be run low and slow if possible.

I notice more of a difference in textures of ribs and Butts/Picnics when foiling, more so with the ribs.

When you foil the ribs you change the texture of the meat significantly, this has been my results anyhow. I find that folks looking for "fall off the bones" ribs like to foil.

I have also experimented with fresh pork and frozen pork with unscientific testing and actually favored the frozen pork as being more tender, I have no idea why.

I would be more prone to cook at a lower temp when using a crockpot, I have noticed pretty extreme differences in foods cooked at higher temps, such as tougher and stringier as the article you referenced points out.

Now a pressure cooker defies all of this.

 

[Bearcarver]

 
Bear, you know how the controllers work on the MES. Even if I set it for 260°-275° to get the controller up past 235° where I want the set point, it'll still cycle up to 250° during the heating cycle. It's always somewhere in the 3rd hour of smoking or so it seems to settle back down to 235-245°, and there are times when it goes below that. I just don't like to smoke at the higher temps. I posted somewhere else that I watched an Aaron Franklin video on beef ribs and the pitmaster in Texas said how he smokes them between 300°-330°. I think I'll give that a try since when I set my MES to 275° it actually goes as least as high as 315° during the heating cycle. That's the reading on my ET-733.

The only time any of my MES ever got to over 300° is on the initial start-up, and if I don't do anything about it, maybe 1 or 2 cycles more.

And even that is only if I set it for 275° which after break-in is next to never.

Bear

 

[daricksta]

 
The only time any of my MES ever got to over 300° is on the initial start-up, and if I don't do anything about it, maybe 1 or 2 cycles more.

And even that is only if I set it for 275° which after break-in is next to never.

Bear

I thought I read in the past where you (or it could have been Kurt "Dr. K") advising to set the controller to 275° so that when the controller passed the desired setpoint, the heating cycle would shut down when the temp was lowered to where you actually wanted it to be. Probably not a very good description but it seems I read it somewhere. I still don't understand much of how those controllers work. I typically keep it around 235°-245°. The controller always stabilizes somewhere between the 2nd-3rd hour of smoking. My MES 30 has been very reliable this past year. 

 

[dr k]

I thought I read in the past where you (or it could have been Kurt "Dr. K") advising to set the controller to 275° so that when the controller passed the desired setpoint, the heating cycle would shut down when the temp was lowered to where you actually wanted it to be. Probably not a very good description but it seems I read it somewhere. I still don't understand much of how those controllers work. I typically keep it around 235°-245°. The controller always stabilizes somewhere between the 2nd-3rd hour of smoking. My MES 30 has been very reliable this past year. 

Bear made the recommendation to set the controller lower and when it shut off and coasted up to the desired temp then reset the controller to that temp, using your Mav for actual temp but setting the controller accordingly. With my configuration for even temps, left to right, my mes averages 260*f when the controller is maxed at 275*f and has the shortest over coasting and under coasting so I'm +/- 5*f. That's my new set it and forget whether I wrap or not. I'm doing a 9lb. Pork shoulder and will wing it on wrapping depending on stalling when averaging 260*f.
-Kurt

 

[daricksta]

Bear made the recommendation to set the controller lower and when it shut off and coasted up to the desired temp then reset the controller to that temp, using your Mav for actual temp but setting the controller accordingly. With my configuration for even temps, left to right, my mes averages 260*f when the controller is maxed at 275*f and has the shortest over coasting and under coasting so I'm +/- 5*f. That's my new set it and forget whether I wrap or not. I'm doing a 9lb. Pork shoulder and will wing it on wrapping depending on stalling when averaging 260*f.
-Kurt

So, as par for the course I reversed what Bear had advised. But then my experience with my MES controller and my Mav is the opposite. Yes, if I desire a set point of 235°F and set it there or lower, the controller will coast up way beyond that. and hang around there for awhile unless I lower the controller even further. Then it will coast down to where or below where I want it (all per my ET-733) then I have to adjust it upward again. The two probes (if I have both clipped to different racks on opposite sides of the smoker) will vary in temp by up to 20° or so until about 3 hours or so into the smoke and then the readings are either the same or within =/- 5 degrees of each other. This happens with every smoke.

Often I have to set the controller about 10-20 degrees below where I want it to get the set point I want. Late in the smoke the temp will descend down to there so I have to boost it up a bit. The temp might then rise a bit above where I want it but then it always settles back down to the set point or within a few degrees of it. So that's why I usually state that I smoked something at a temp between 235°-250°, although an upper temp range of 242-245° would be more accurate. As I've written before, I only boost it to 250° if I'm worried about whatever I'm smoking being done too late for dinner that night and want to shorten the time remaining. 

 

[jokensmoken]

I read the same article...I found it this spring when time constraints forced me to try something new.
Ive been smoking butts for pulling since 1990 when I got my first ECB for Christmas. And always followed the conventional low and slow (220°250° till it's done) wisdom.
For the last several years I've become a popular go to guy in our community for smoking for graduations, reunions, fund raisers and lake parties so the number of butts I smoke can now exceed 20 a season.
This spring I agreed to smoke six butts for a fund raiser.
When everything was set to go about ten days prior to the event I was inquiring where they wanted me to set up (they were pretty insistent on smoking on premises) and said I'd be in the day before with my equipment.
Suddenly early access became an issue and I was forced to figure out how to do everything from set up to serving in 12 hours which meant an 8-9 hour smoke time.
Long story short, following the advice of many hot and fast guys on this forum, Cliff Carter specifically...It came together perfectly...I went with my MB 40XL propane with a pellet tube and finished six butts in the
9lb range in 8.5 hours at 280°F
They were exceptional, pulled easily and I couldn't tell any difference...I've since done a side by side at my own party where folks have come to expect top notch BBQ...
Two butts nearly identical in every way...both smoked on similar bullet smokers with charcoal and Apple and pecan chunks. One smoked at 230° for 14 hours one at 280° for about 9 hours...both pulled when probe tender (basically repeating the experiment) and no one knew the difference...
Same experiment...different taste test results...
And I've had the experience of hotter and faster being indistinguishable on multiple occasions now.
I'm not trying to discredit the "scientific" results but on the other hand I trust my expertise on at least pulled pork as much as anyone's and personal results suggest differently. There's really nothing "scientific" about a taste test...there were no scientific measurements done on the finished product.
Just saying IMHO the difference isn't distinguishable and there are many that agree.

Walt

 

[Bearcarver]

I read the same article...I found it this spring when time constraints forced me to try something new.
Ive been smoking butts for pulling since 1990 when I got my first ECB for Christmas. And always followed the conventional low and slow (220°250° till it's done) wisdom.
For the last several years I've become a popular go to guy in our community for smoking for graduations, reunions, fund raisers and lake parties so the number of butts I smoke can now exceed 20 a season.
This spring I agreed to smoke six butts for a fund raiser.
When everything was set to go about ten days prior to the event I was inquiring where they wanted me to set up (they were pretty insistent on smoking on premises) and said I'd be in the day before with my equipment.
Suddenly early access became an issue and I was forced to figure out how to do everything from set up to serving in 12 hours which meant an 8-9 hour smoke time.
Long story short, following the advice of many hot and fast guys on this forum, Cliff Carter specifically...It came together perfectly...I went with my MB 40XL propane with a pellet tube and finished six butts in the
9lb range in 8.5 hours at 280°F
They were exceptional, pulled easily and I couldn't tell any difference...I've since done a side by side at my own party where folks have come to expect top notch BBQ...
Two butts nearly identical in every way...both smoked on similar bullet smokers with charcoal and Apple and pecan chunks. One smoked at 230° for 14 hours one at 280° for about 9 hours...both pulled when probe tender (basically repeating the experiment) and no one knew the difference...
Same experiment...different taste test results...
And I've had the experience of hotter and faster being indistinguishable on multiple occasions now.
I'm not trying to discredit the "scientific" results but on the other hand I trust my expertise on at least pulled pork as much as anyone's and personal results suggest differently. There's really nothing "scientific" about a taste test...there were no scientific measurements done on the finished product.
Just saying IMHO the difference isn't distinguishable and there are many that agree.

Walt

Hi Walt,

Actually I'm not entirely sure I would consider 280° to be Hot & Fast, even though your 280° was 5 hours shorter than the 230°.

I think those who do the "Hot & Fast" Smokes on a regular basis are using a higher heat than 280°, like in the 300+ Range.

Just my 2 Piastres,

Bear

 

[Rings Я Us]

Was reading a recipe for chef John's pulled pork one day. Used a Dutch oven to roast it in the oven at 210°. 4# butt. 12 hours he said.

 

[daricksta]

I read the same article...I found it this spring when time constraints forced me to try something new.
Ive been smoking butts for pulling since 1990 when I got my first ECB for Christmas. And always followed the conventional low and slow (220°250° till it's done) wisdom.
For the last several years I've become a popular go to guy in our community for smoking for graduations, reunions, fund raisers and lake parties so the number of butts I smoke can now exceed 20 a season.
This spring I agreed to smoke six butts for a fund raiser.
When everything was set to go about ten days prior to the event I was inquiring where they wanted me to set up (they were pretty insistent on smoking on premises) and said I'd be in the day before with my equipment.
Suddenly early access became an issue and I was forced to figure out how to do everything from set up to serving in 12 hours which meant an 8-9 hour smoke time.
Long story short, following the advice of many hot and fast guys on this forum, Cliff Carter specifically...It came together perfectly...I went with my MB 40XL propane with a pellet tube and finished six butts in the
9lb range in 8.5 hours at 280°F
They were exceptional, pulled easily and I couldn't tell any difference...I've since done a side by side at my own party where folks have come to expect top notch BBQ...
Two butts nearly identical in every way...both smoked on similar bullet smokers with charcoal and Apple and pecan chunks. One smoked at 230° for 14 hours one at 280° for about 9 hours...both pulled when probe tender (basically repeating the experiment) and no one knew the difference...
Same experiment...different taste test results...
And I've had the experience of hotter and faster being indistinguishable on multiple occasions now.
I'm not trying to discredit the "scientific" results but on the other hand I trust my expertise on at least pulled pork as much as anyone's and personal results suggest differently. There's really nothing "scientific" about a taste test...there were no scientific measurements done on the finished product.
Just saying IMHO the difference isn't distinguishable and there are many that agree.

Walt

Thanks for this, Walt. The article did say that that the differences were slight. I  think it comes down to personal tastes and how sensitive they are to changes in textures. I know I've seen recipes in BBQ cookbooks that called for smoking at 300°. If I get meats like beef briskets or pork shoulders in early enough, I don't mind it taking them 12+ hours to cook because I'm home anyway. I will raise the temp if I need to hurry up the smoke so the meat will be ready for dinner at a decent time (before 8:30 pm).