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ALMOST READY FOR THE VIRGIN JERKY RUN !!!!

post #1 of 7
Thread Starter 

I posted this in the General Discussion Forum................I am a noob after all....................... so thought i would move it here in the correct Forum for electric smokers seeing that is what I am using 102.gif

Hello All !

I just this evening got another welcome from the "Roll Call" thread from Gary s, the following is my comment to him which will save me some work here :)
Wanted to share that comment and my acquired spices and equipment for Smoking and a couple of pieces for the meat processing.

 

We are really excited about starting to wet brine food to be cooked and wet brining/curing meats to be smoked and or dehydrated for storage, going to start with Jerky and move on from there.
 

Kinda busted the budget but got enough to keep us producing for a while, although like stated below I thought I bought 2 cases of the salt but it was only 2 8 lb containers...............................

 

Once I get my racks in for the smoker I will post some pics and the procedure for the mod   :) , should be getting those racks about mid next week, so looking forward to the test batch after seasoning the smoker, pretty excited, my wife is too  :)

************  Want to Thank everyone for the posts, the recipes, all the questions that led to answers for me and of course for all the fine answers from a bunch of helpful real folks, Thanks to Pops for his recipe for the cure, I will be using that plus a wealth of other information you all have given me thru your correspondence here, you guys and gals are the finest !!!

Guy

 

 

 

Gary,

Thankyou Sir :), and I believe you are right about the best site on the web and the best bunch of folks on the web from what I have seen !

Glad to be here, already learned a lot and learning more each day, just got all my spices in today except for the brown sugar, it will be here tomorrow, bought bulk at good prices of the basics, will get more a little at a time and until then I will go Walmart for any I might need, I got my 10" slicer, not the finest but I am impressed with it now that I see it, 1/4 hp motor, for jerky, some thin steaks, sandwich meat and some cheese it should do great, got 5 lb jugs of Ground Cayenne, Coarse ground Black Pepper, Minced Onions, Minced Garlic and a jug of Taco Seasoning for the wife, maybe make her some Taco Jerky  :), but she love Tacos so she will surely use it for Taco's and Burritos etc., and 4 gallons of the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses, I thought I was getting 2 cases of 4 of the 8 lb jugs of Fine Sea Salt, but I was not paying attention ????? only got 2 jugs, so will be making another order of that in the next couple of weeks, we are going to be brining a lot of meat with and without cure so need plenty of that and it is priced well, and of course got 50 lbs of white sugar locally since the price was right, got 10 lbs of cure, stocking !!!, so should not need any more of that for a long time, I could not resist the deal from http://www.sausagemaker.com/Default.asp , Insta-cure #1
Oh and my scale I got from the same place http://www.webstaurantstore.com/ , not special, 10 lbs for now but since it has the Tare/Zero function I can do 10 lb batchs for total weight until maybe I can afford one with a bigger tray, it does grams as well so it will be very nice overall I think, I would have liked a larger one, more poundage and a larger tray but I had to compromise.
And I already have the MES 30 Sportmans Elite Analog Smoker, added some more racks to it, going to post my mod once I get the last 3 racks I need in, ordered them from Master Built, they should be here early this coming week.
So I am all hyped and ready to season that puppy and get it full of some meats for Jerky first off, going to use it to cook with as well.

Going to make a purchase of some eye of round roasts very soon, so I will do about a pound for my virgin run and if all goes well will do the rest, going to get 3 15-18 lb pieces, so going to have plenty to do, since I am curing, I will go low temp on the process, just still fighting over how much time I want to smoke it, I am thinking with the design of this smoker (limited vent, which I may be modding, have to take it for a test drive first) that I may just smoke for the 2-3 hrs I see some sharing as their time, and just dry the rest, so cold smoke for a couple of hours and run no more than 130 on dehydrating after that, hope all goes well, but hence the test run, and if it gets overdone, np, I will seal it and store it for Pemmican !  LOL

Pretty excited, almost ready to get my feet wet thanks to all these fine people sharing their experience  :)

Guy

 

SMOKING EQUIPMENT

 

MES 30 SPORTSMAN ELITE ANALOG ELECTRIC W/ 1500W ELEMENT

http://www.cabelas.com/product/masterbuilt-sportsman-elite-30-black-analog-smoker/1627128.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dsmoker%2B%26x%3D10%26y%3D6%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%252BProducts&Ntt=smoker+

AMNPS PELLET SMOKER

http://www.cabelas.com/product/a-maze-n-products-pellet-smoker/1873479.uts

PELLETS -  Hickory and Mesquite for now, will get more flavors when budget heals

http://www.cabelas.com/product/cabela-s-bbq-wood-pellets/1749424.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dpellet%2Bsmoker%26x%3D10%26y%3D6%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%252BProducts&Ntt=pellet+smoker

 

 

KITCHEN EQUIPMENT

 

Avantco SL310 10" manual gravity feed slicer 

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/avantco-sl310-10-manual-gravity-feed-meat-slicer-1-4-hp/177SL310.html

Globe GPS10 10 lb. Digital Portion Control Scale

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/globe-gps10-10-lb-digital-portion-control-scale/377GPS10.html

 

 

CURE

INSTA CURE #1, 5 LBS.- 2  5  lb Jars

http://www.sausagemaker.com/Insta-Cure-1-5-lbs-p/11-1013.htm

 

SPICES AND SEASONING

 

 

MINCED GARLIC- 5 lb Jug

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/regal-minced-garlic-5-lb/102707658.html

MINCED ONION- 4 lb Jug

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/regal-minced-onion-4-lb/10200094.html

BLACK PEPPER- 5 lb Jug

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/regal-table-black-pepper-5-lb/10200108.html

GROUND CAYENNE PEPPER- 5 lb Jug

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/regal-ground-cayenne-pepper-5-lb/1020707838.html

FINE SEA SALT- 8 lb Jug

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/regal-fine-sea-salt-8-lb/10207574.html

BAKING MOLASSES- 1 case (4 ea.) of 1 gallon bottles

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/golden-barrel-1-gallon-sulfur-free-supreme-baking-molasses-4-case/125BAK4X1.html

DARK BROWN SUGAR- 50 lbs

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/dark-brown-sugar-25-lb/104SUGDKBR25.html

TACO SEASONING- 5 lbs Jug 
My Wife and I both love Taco's, Burritos etc so I got some of this, will surely try it as a marinade for some Taco Jerky !

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/regal-taco-seasoning-5-lb/10207374.html

WHITE SUGAR- 50 lbs 

PURCHASED LOCALLY, CLEAN AND A GOOD PRICE

post #2 of 7

Hey Guy, You have some nice equipment. Just a suggestion, your scale measures to 1gram. You will often need to measure to at least 0.1g, as in 6.3g, with the Cure #1. You should consider a small scale that measure to 0.1 or even 0.01 grams, they are under $10. Speaking of Cure #1...10 POUNDS! Considering you use 4.0 Ounces per 100 Pounds of Meat...You have enough for 2 TONS OF MEAT! You going into Business? :biggrin: Fortunately Cure #1 kept in a sealed container and in a cool, dark cabinet will last forever. Though some have reported the Pink Color fading. Take a look at the info below...JJ

 

Use as follows:
Cure #1 per pound of ground meat/fat for sausage or Jerky
U.S. Measurements
Amount of Meat/Fat     Amount of Cure \
               Vol.     Wt.
1 lb.     1/4 tsp.     .05 oz.   1.42g
2 lbs.     3/8 tsp.     .08 oz.   2.27g
3 lbs.     1/2 tsp.     .10 oz.  2.83g
4 lbs.     3/4 tsp.     .15 oz.  4.25g
5 lbs.     1 tsp.     .20 oz.   5.67g
10 lbs. 2 tsp.     .40 oz.   11.34g
15 lbs. 1 Tbsp.     .55 oz.   15.59g
20 lbs. 1 Tbsp. + 1 tsp.     .80 oz.   22.68g
25 lbs. 1 Tbsp. + 2 tsp.     1.00 oz.   28.35g
50 lbs. 3 Tbsp. + 1 1/4 tsp.     2.00 oz.   56.70g
100 lbs. 1/4 C. + 2 Tbsp. + 2 tsp.     4.00 oz.   113.40g
tsp. = teaspoon; Tbsp.= Tablespoon; C. = cup.
oz.= ounce;  g = grams
 
post #3 of 7
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef JimmyJ View Post
 

Hey Guy, You have some nice equipment. Just a suggestion, your scale measures to 1gram. You will often need to measure to at least 0.1g, as in 6.3g, with the Cure #1. You should consider a small scale that measure to 0.1 or even 0.01 grams, they are under $10. Speaking of Cure #1...10 POUNDS! Considering you use 4.0 Ounces per 100 Pounds of Meat...You have enough for 2 TONS OF MEAT! You going into Business? :biggrin: Fortunately Cure #1 kept in a sealed container and in a cool, dark cabinet will last forever. Though some have reported the Pink Color fading. Take a look at the info below...JJ

 

Use as follows:
Cure #1 per pound of ground meat/fat for sausage or Jerky
U.S. Measurements
Amount of Meat/Fat     Amount of Cure \
               Vol.     Wt.
1 lb.     1/4 tsp.     .05 oz.   1.42g
2 lbs.     3/8 tsp.     .08 oz.   2.27g
3 lbs.     1/2 tsp.     .10 oz.  2.83g
4 lbs.     3/4 tsp.     .15 oz.  4.25g
5 lbs.     1 tsp.     .20 oz.   5.67g
10 lbs. 2 tsp.     .40 oz.   11.34g
15 lbs. 1 Tbsp.     .55 oz.   15.59g
20 lbs. 1 Tbsp. + 1 tsp.     .80 oz.   22.68g
25 lbs. 1 Tbsp. + 2 tsp.     1.00 oz.   28.35g
50 lbs. 3 Tbsp. + 1 1/4 tsp.     2.00 oz.   56.70g
100 lbs. 1/4 C. + 2 Tbsp. + 2 tsp.     4.00 oz.   113.40g
tsp. = teaspoon; Tbsp.= Tablespoon; C. = cup.
oz.= ounce;  g = grams
 

 

JJ ,

 

Yes, I got 2 containers, 5 lbs each, because, yes, I did not want to worry about buying more any time soon, but also because me and my neighbor are going to be working together on some storage meats, so not only did I want to have plenty, I also wanted to be sure if he needed some I would have it, here in my little hood we help one another, not saying others do not do the same, just saying here if one needs and another has, then their need is met, it always comes back around one way or the other Thumbs Up.
And we do have a spot inside kinda hidden we are storing the excess of this order, this is why I was not concerned with breaking the budget so to speak with this start up, seeing that outside of some other spices I will get as funds permit, we will not be buying anymore for a long long while :icon_biggrin:

The slicer I really am not sure about, it looks really nice and was under 300 bucks, it has a 1/4 hp motor which should be plenty for jerky and such, just was not sure of longevity, but the reviews are very promising, I did some serious research and it seemed to be the best deal, not the best slicer, but again 8-12" blades on the restaurant styles, so I went with 10", midrange, also I was not only looking at the blade size but also the tray size, I wanted to keep my Jerky about 8" long at least and this one has a 8"X8" slicing tray, as far as price, WOW, I saw slicers for over 8K, not sure what they did for 8K.................but hoping that the slicer will last seeing it will really only be used intermittently for Jerky and such, rather than every day all day, I am hoping for a nice long life

All the spices have a 3 year shelf life and will be stored in conditioned space as well, I am also working on making a small meat room in my large barn like shop for the slicer and all the ingredients in the future, this would be conditioned space also year round, but temps in the summer would be kept just under 80 degrees until I used it, to keep power usage lower, and then I would bring it down further when working in there, plan is to put a window unit heat pump permanently in the outside wall, room will be small, about 8' X 8' with double doors on the wall facing the center of the shop, it will only be a work table with storage under it and of course the slicer and some scales and measuring paraphernalia and also some knives to play with  :icon_biggrin:

And the scales.............I do have a nice set of digital postal scales that will fit that bill nicely, did not include them since they were not part of my start up, but you are exactly right sir about that, I also have a very nice set of triple beams, most likely will use them as they will measure from a 10th of a gram to over 5 lbs, do not really want my nice digital scales getting that kind of use out in the shop and around so much liquid and seasonings, some seasonings are very prone to creating issues regarding oxidation and corrosion on circuitry and circuit boards, the triple beams are fully mechanical and immune to any such damage from anything unless you knock them off the table lol and the beams have a nice stainless tray on them and are already set up for a small bowl with a counter weight I trimmed to zero when using, had to weight the bottom of the bowl to make it heavy enough so I could have the counter weight with the hanger lol, this way no change from zero with the bowl and zero without the bowl, all I have to do is hang the counter weight on the knob already on the end of the beams (the little knob is there to add weights to increase the measuring capacity of the beams, I used both scales for Derby cars, I used to be a scout, one merit badge from a Eagle and fell out, but my son was also, the beams I used for Derby racing, they were our weigh in scales, when doing Derby racing, a coat of paint can throw you over the weight limit with ease, but do not want to use that for real heavy stuff, wears out the pivot rests pretty quick weighing allot of heavy stuff over 3 lbs.

 

And also, at least for the startup, we are going to be using Pop's wet brining recipe and will not have to do so much of the math regarding weight as it will only be per gallon of water instead of various weights and using fractional measurements of cure, trying to keep it simple for the moment and from my reading, I think I will prefer the wet brine and cure, if I want more I can season before smoke and or dehydration.

I will look thru my notes and see if I already have that table of measurements you gave me there, I think I might have that already, if not I will surely add it to my notes.
I have compiled notes from SMF for Curing, Brining and Recipes, I am in the process of organizing the notes and then I am printing them off to have in several places, this way if we ever go off the grid voluntarily or involuntarily I will have my notes !!!!!

And to further answer the Cure amount, yes we are going to make up over 100 lbs of Jerky, brined, cured, and cold smoked, then vacuum sealed and put in the freezer, for hard times, I have to do so much because I will be supporting 5 people at least if the situation arises, and thats just the Jerky !, plan on making some Pemmican as well, can't survive very well without fat !, my neighbor is doing the same, so we will be working on that Cure, and if nothing else as you said, we will never run out, so no, no going into business, just wanted to buy it and forget about buying more. PDT_Armataz_01_34.gif


Edited by N4YNU - 8/1/16 at 9:28am
post #4 of 7
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef JimmyJ View Post
 

Hey Guy, You have some nice equipment. Just a suggestion, your scale measures to 1gram. You will often need to measure to at least 0.1g, as in 6.3g, with the Cure #1. You should consider a small scale that measure to 0.1 or even 0.01 grams, they are under $10. Speaking of Cure #1...10 POUNDS! Considering you use 4.0 Ounces per 100 Pounds of Meat...You have enough for 2 TONS OF MEAT! You going into Business? :biggrin: Fortunately Cure #1 kept in a sealed container and in a cool, dark cabinet will last forever. Though some have reported the Pink Color fading. Take a look at the info below...JJ

 

Use as follows:
Cure #1 per pound of ground meat/fat for sausage or Jerky
U.S. Measurements
Amount of Meat/Fat     Amount of Cure \
               Vol.     Wt.
1 lb.     1/4 tsp.     .05 oz.   1.42g
2 lbs.     3/8 tsp.     .08 oz.   2.27g
3 lbs.     1/2 tsp.     .10 oz.  2.83g
4 lbs.     3/4 tsp.     .15 oz.  4.25g
5 lbs.     1 tsp.     .20 oz.   5.67g
10 lbs. 2 tsp.     .40 oz.   11.34g
15 lbs. 1 Tbsp.     .55 oz.   15.59g
20 lbs. 1 Tbsp. + 1 tsp.     .80 oz.   22.68g
25 lbs. 1 Tbsp. + 2 tsp.     1.00 oz.   28.35g
50 lbs. 3 Tbsp. + 1 1/4 tsp.     2.00 oz.   56.70g
100 lbs. 1/4 C. + 2 Tbsp. + 2 tsp.     4.00 oz.   113.40g
tsp. = teaspoon; Tbsp.= Tablespoon; C. = cup.
oz.= ounce;  g = grams
 

 

JJ,

I did have the measurements already, cannot remember which post I copied them from lol, but already have them in my notes, I also compiled some rub notes as I am interested in doing that also, but again, I think I like the wet brine/cure better and can add a garnish after coming out of the brine and or brine/cure :drool:

Like I said in my roll call post, I spent a few weeks surfing and checking some other groups out, but seriously, you guys have the best going here, IMHO, when I tout this Forum, I am not trying for points of any sort, it is the truth as I see it, I have nothing but good to say about SMF and all the people that are part of it and manage it, I surfed and surfed and saw nothing but good man, not only good regarding information, but good people too, and good people are important to me as the good information and the wealth of mods and such, bad environments have bad effects on me, do not enjoy them, never have, all you guys and gals are truly the best I have found and I am very happy and proud to be here sir.

I am looking in the months to come to expand my ingredient stock and really putting to use a lot of what all you guys and gals share in here, I am really excited, winter will be better, summer I am kinda busy in the yard and on projects, but winter I will have nothing to do but make goodies and post them here  :yahoo: 

post #5 of 7
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef JimmyJ View Post
 

Hey Guy, You have some nice equipment. Just a suggestion, your scale measures to 1gram. You will often need to measure to at least 0.1g, as in 6.3g, with the Cure #1. You should consider a small scale that measure to 0.1 or even 0.01 grams, they are under $10. Speaking of Cure #1...10 POUNDS! Considering you use 4.0 Ounces per 100 Pounds of Meat...You have enough for 2 TONS OF MEAT! You going into Business? :biggrin: Fortunately Cure #1 kept in a sealed container and in a cool, dark cabinet will last forever. Though some have reported the Pink Color fading. Take a look at the info below...JJ

 

Use as follows:
Cure #1 per pound of ground meat/fat for sausage or Jerky
U.S. Measurements
Amount of Meat/Fat     Amount of Cure \
               Vol.     Wt.
1 lb.     1/4 tsp.     .05 oz.   1.42g
2 lbs.     3/8 tsp.     .08 oz.   2.27g
3 lbs.     1/2 tsp.     .10 oz.  2.83g
4 lbs.     3/4 tsp.     .15 oz.  4.25g
5 lbs.     1 tsp.     .20 oz.   5.67g
10 lbs. 2 tsp.     .40 oz.   11.34g
15 lbs. 1 Tbsp.     .55 oz.   15.59g
20 lbs. 1 Tbsp. + 1 tsp.     .80 oz.   22.68g
25 lbs. 1 Tbsp. + 2 tsp.     1.00 oz.   28.35g
50 lbs. 3 Tbsp. + 1 1/4 tsp.     2.00 oz.   56.70g
100 lbs. 1/4 C. + 2 Tbsp. + 2 tsp.     4.00 oz.   113.40g
tsp. = teaspoon; Tbsp.= Tablespoon; C. = cup.
oz.= ounce;  g = grams
 

Oh JJ,

I also wanted to say Thanks for the comment, please feel free to keep a brother in check if I need it, I do not take offense to suggestions or corrections, if I am wrong or doing something wrong, I would surely not take offense in any way if you or anyone else corrected me, rather, I would appreciate it sir, so Thankyou for the comment and the suggestions, I am Thankful sir  :yahoo:
 

post #6 of 7

I grew up and spent most of my life living in the Burbs and working in the City. Two more weeks and my family and I are going Country. Small town, surrounded by mountains and a couple Acres, enough to have a serious Garden and some meat Animals. Not going full blown Off the Grid Prepper but I respect those that do and I plan to put aside for future needs if they arise. I am getting older and will need help from younger neighbors from time to time. I like the idea of working together and sharing the wealth or trading what I do best for skills I don't have. I look forward to seeing what you have planned...JJ 

post #7 of 7
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef JimmyJ View Post
 

I grew up and spent most of my life living in the Burbs and working in the City. Two more weeks and my family and I are going Country. Small town, surrounded by mountains and a couple Acres, enough to have a serious Garden and some meat Animals. Not going full blown Off the Grid Prepper but I respect those that do and I plan to put aside for future needs if they arise. I am getting older and will need help from younger neighbors from time to time. I like the idea of working together and sharing the wealth or trading what I do best for skills I don't have. I look forward to seeing what you have planned...JJ 



All of my family were farmers, I came up on a farm that was off the grid regarding food, we did have power lol, we raised Dark and Burley Tobacco (cash crop) and grew everything for food, except okra, blech !, raised market pigs from our sows, castrated them ourselves, another Uncle a few miles away raised dairy cows and produced milk and we used his cows for meat, and he used our piggies for pork, he had huge fields with ponds, he also raised chickens, so we always had fresh chicken meats too, and he would throw the dead chickens (Holly Farms is who he raised them for) in the ponds, there were snappers we caught and killed in those ponds bigger than 50 lbs, my mom and aunt would make turtle stew with them, we killed them because they ate all the fish when they get that big, and you should have seen the size of the catfish in those ponds we had and caught, large enough to come and swallow a whole fryer size chicken, we would go and watch him throw them in and you would see them come to the surface and just suck the whole chicken in their mouth, we caught many over 20 lbs hehehe

We only went to the store for Wonder Bread for sandwiches and Dukes or Ms Filberts Mayo, my mom and aunts canned and jarred everything, a 50 ft long basement lined with foods, preserves and wine  :)

Now I am in the burbs LOL and wish I was back, it will not happen, but can still wish.

I am not a full blown prepper, but from the experience of my country life and military I can see it may be coming and we need to do some modest preparing, I am finishing a bank of batteries and already have some solar panels, going to try and make my smoking and brining, all of my shop power, solar powered to save electric, already have inverters for emergency and camping use, but in the end I want to build a 48V bank and have at least 5000W inverter, I can keep this at and in the big barn shop which will be wired to the house for 220V service, so it would be real easy to feed that solar bank power back to the house on that same line, and with a relatively cheap autotransformer I could supply 220V back to the house via the same line that is supplying 220V to the shops, that would be cool for basic lighting and such, but running 220V appliances would be minimal, it would only be for like heating water a little bit if it were winter.

I have a wood stove and a propane wood stove like heater in the house, both are cast iron, I also have a heat pump for the more temperate weather like 30 degrees and above, but prefer the wood, this is why I have the Char Grill, I use wood more than charcoal, I always have a abundance of Red, White, Black Oak, Walnut and Hickory, with some reserve maple for fire starter if needed.

That is why I am so excited about the MES 30, I will not have to slave around all that blasted heat and sit there and micro manage temps, I liked it better in the country, we had a smoke house, we all got our turn at fire watch to keep the coals going and apply the proper chips, although we were young, did not pay to much attention to the art, just made sure we did our chores, after that it was off playing or fishing.

Yeah I want to be prepared but not going frenzy mode like you see a lot of people doing, we are already pretty prepared, we have some wicked storms out here occasionally, it has been in the last 5 years we have been without power for over 2 weeks and when you get to the store virtually all the food is gone, so you better be ready, I can travel in over 2 ft of snow in my Jimmy with ease so we are not locked in at any time, but having food stores has paid off big time, I also have a generator and a old Ford P/U with dual tanks, so I always keep the tanks full and have 10 gallons in 2 cans at all times this gives me fuel reserves of over 100 gallons if I count the wifes Van, I keep 10 gals of Kerosene as well, we have oil lamps for light, use the kerosene as a fire starter also, and we have several Aladdin Lamps, they put out 60 watts of light and also put out 2500 BTU's of heat, we have literally heated this house to the low 70's with 3 of those lamps, they are very nice for cold weather, and very usable for light.

Ok, done yappin LOL

I think the combination of indian guides, cub scouts, weeblos, boy scouts and the military have made me very conscious of survival and emergency preparedness, not full blown crazy, just well thought out and reasonable.

I am getting ready to re-drill the well on this property also ROFLOL, and will power that with solar as well in the end, if anything does happen, I will be able to do the basics, eat, go to the bathroom and shower, and boy will we be eating good sir !!!!!!

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