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How long with Cure#!

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 

How long can I have a product at let's say, 100 degrees with just using Cure#1?

post #2 of 26

Colud you give up  a little more info please??

 

  Craig

post #3 of 26
Thread Starter 

I am trying to determine how long I can smoke/dry something like summer sausage or other similar product at a sub 140 temp with only adding cure#1.

 

That help?

post #4 of 26

You can hold at low temps with cure #1 for quite awhile 1-10 hours or more.

 

I have done many times at 80* cold smoke for 8 hrs+ with no adverse affects.....hey i'm still typing yahoo.gif

post #5 of 26

I concur with meat mopper.That is one of the primary reasons for using #1. You can cold smoke at a low temp for quite some time. This is the range that some  microscopic critters thrive. The cure prevents them from doing their thing. Weisswurst

post #6 of 26

Nepas knows his sausage!

post #7 of 26

Please follow a tested recipe.  

 

It can be dangerous drawing generalities without knowing how you will handle the product, how long you will cure it for and how much cure you intend to use.

 

The Summer Sausage Recipe I have (pg 406 Marianski book) calls for

 

Grind all ingrediants and stuff the casings

Ferment for 24 hrs at 86 degrees

warm smoke 110 degrees for 6 hours

Raise temp and smoke until internal 140 is obtained

Dry for 3 days at 70-60 degrees if desired

Sausage can be stored at 50 - 59 degrees and 75%  humidity

 

It calls for the product to be at room temp for 24 hours then on the low smoke for 6 hours and what another 2 or three hours to get to internal 140?

 

Follow a recipe until you get familiar with the process and results.  When you become comfortable with what you are doing you will have a lot of lattitude to develop your own tastes and styles.

 

Just my advice, I'm not the sausage police.PDT_Armataz_01_36.gif

 

Al

post #8 of 26
Thread Starter 

thanks for the replies, guys.  I am hoping to get some conrete guidance on this one. I am trying to avoid generalities.  That's why I asked the question.  I am seeking to understand how many hours I can cold smoke with Cure#1 without running into problems.  the science is out there,  I just can't seem to find it.

 

I have followed some recipes, but was unhappy with the result.  I want a drier firmer summer sausage.  I have done an insane amount of research and I think there is a really good chance that i can get what i am looking for with a longer, lower temp smoke.  I just don't want to kill somebody with the results.

post #9 of 26

Why not tell us what you are doing now so we know where to start?  We cold smoke bacon for anywhere from 12 to 48 hours without any problems.  Dealing with a ground meat, stuffed sausage is a bit different because the bad bugs are introduced throughout the sausage and not just the outside as with bacon or whole cuts of meat. 

 

If you do not have a summer sausage you are happy with and you have followed the recipes offered on this site by people that make good summer sausage you may be looking for something beside summer sausage.

 

Please post the current recipe you are using and the cooking methods you are using.  Somebody may have a suggestion to get you where you want to go.  That's the only way I can see to give you the solid guidance you are looking for.

 

Al

post #10 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by alblancher View Post

 

Please post the current recipe you are using and the cooking methods you are using.  Somebody may have a suggestion to get you where you want to go.  That's the only way I can see to give you the solid guidance you are looking for.

 

Al



well said..........

 

post #11 of 26

Is this using Cure #1 or Cure #2?  I thought you had to use Cure #2 in fermenting meats?  Or is that for a much longer fermentation time?
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alblancher View Post

Please follow a tested recipe.  

 

It can be dangerous drawing generalities without knowing how you will handle the product, how long you will cure it for and how much cure you intend to use.

 

The Summer Sausage Recipe I have (pg 406 Marianski book) calls for

 

Grind all ingrediants and stuff the casings

Ferment for 24 hrs at 86 degrees

warm smoke 110 degrees for 6 hours

Raise temp and smoke until internal 140 is obtained

Dry for 3 days at 70-60 degrees if desired

Sausage can be stored at 50 - 59 degrees and 75%  humidity

 

It calls for the product to be at room temp for 24 hours then on the low smoke for 6 hours and what another 2 or three hours to get to internal 140?

 

Follow a recipe until you get familiar with the process and results.  When you become comfortable with what you are doing you will have a lot of lattitude to develop your own tastes and styles.

 

Just my advice, I'm not the sausage police.PDT_Armataz_01_36.gif

 

Al



 

post #12 of 26

that recipe is for cure #1......as i understand it, it is for a much longer fermentation time. the longer time is needed for the nitrate to convert into nitrite.

post #13 of 26
Thread Starter 

here is a link to the summer sausage I made a couple of batches ago - note comments at bottom of thread regarding texture.  Thanks for trying to help out.

 

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/102831/summer-sausage-q-view-new-pic

 

However, I am not sure what that has to do with seeking out how long you can cold smoke safely using cure #1?  I just sent an email to foodsafety.gov.  we'll see where that leads.

 

 

post #14 of 26


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alblancher View Post

Why not tell us what you are doing now so we know where to start?  We cold smoke bacon for anywhere from 12 to 48 hours without any problems.  Dealing with a ground meat, stuffed sausage is a bit different because the bad bugs are introduced throughout the sausage and not just the outside as with bacon or whole cuts of meat. 

 

If you do not have a summer sausage you are happy with and you have followed the recipes offered on this site by people that make good summer sausage you may be looking for something beside summer sausage.

 

Please post the current recipe you are using and the cooking methods you are using.  Somebody may have a suggestion to get you where you want to go.  That's the only way I can see to give you the solid guidance you are looking for.

 

Al


What Al says.

 

One of my Dried Beef recipes calls for smoking low for a few days, but that isn't ground meat.

 

I'm not sure that a super long time would correct anything you think it would correct.

 

 

 

 

Also I don't have that Marianski book, but that "SS" recipe above sounds like a Cure #2 recipe.

 

 

Bear

 

post #15 of 26
Thread Starter 

I was hoping to test my theory on the longer smoke times, but want to ensure it's safe.  So,  I guess I am still looking for some guidance on how long you can safely go with cure#1.  I have not heard back from the government yet - will let you guys know if I do.

 

thanks guys.

post #16 of 26

Down Low asked about Summer Sausage

 

The recipes I am familiar with treat summer sausage as a fermented sausage

 

I checked and the recipe I alluded to does indeed use Cure 1.  It is posted in the fermented sausages section and does require a F-LC culture.  Teewurst is cured for 48 hours at 64 degrees, Thuringer is cured for 24 hours at 86 degrees, Pepperoni (fast fermented - semi dry) is cured at 100 degrees  for 24 hours all use Cure 1 and added cultures.  The time after smoking when drying at room temps is limited to a matter of  2 - 4 days.  In fermented sausages the cure 1 is basically a way to slow the spread of bad bugs until the innoculated culture can change the pH of the product (outside of survivable range) and the amount of moisture available (the water is chemically bound and not available) to the bugs.

 

Most smoked non-fermented sausage calls for curing at room temp for a couple of hours and then smoking.  Storage is in the refrigerator

 

Some of the recipes that call for Cure 2  Cold Smoked Polish, Russian Sausage, Salamis, Pepperoni (slow fermented and dry) call for cure times in the 68 degree range for 3 - 8 days and then drying in a cool place (58-65) degrees for up to several months and may or may not required a fermenting culture

 

I know it is clear as mud.  That is why I don't want to make specific recommendations on how long Cure 1 will keep a product safe in a slow smoke.  Just too many variables.  I do know that Nitrites dissipate fairly quickly, as little as 3 or 4 days depending on temp during the cure process thus the reason for using Cure 2 in the longer cure recipes.  As noted before the nitrates in cure 2 require bacterial action to produce the nitrite.   The effect of curing on a whole piece of meat (bacon) is different then in a commingled product like sausage, further complicating the estimate of times between recipes.

 

Nitrite is reduced to NO by temp and moisture.  This is what kills the bad guys and protects the product

Nitrate is reduced to nitrite by microbial activity and moisture  This does nothing to protect the product, the next step Nitrite to NO is the curative agent.

 

I am simply not comfortable enough with the resources available to me to hazard an answer to the question  "how long does cure 1 extend the life of a product in a slow smoker".  I have some food safety paperwork that may be a bit more specific but that information is normally discussing the amount of time in storage after preparation.

 

 

 

post #17 of 26
Thread Starter 

it's a blinger of a question now isn't it?biggrin.gif

 

I most likely would not stretch my schedule beyond 15 hours or so, and I think that should be OK, but when you read about the affect botulism can have I want to be more than confident.  

 

We can kill this one I think.  I am going to peck away at the food safety.gov folks and see what I can some up with.  I'll let you all know if I find anything conclusive.  Thanks again for everyone's thoughts and input.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alblancher View Post

Down Low asked about Summer Sausage

 

The recipes I am familiar with treat summer sausage as a fermented sausage

 

I checked and the recipe I alluded to does indeed use Cure 1.  It is posted in the fermented sausages section and does require a F-LC culture.  Teewurst is cured for 48 hours at 64 degrees, Thuringer is cured for 24 hours at 86 degrees, Pepperoni (fast fermented - semi dry) is cured at 100 degrees  for 24 hours all use Cure 1 and added cultures.  The time after smoking when drying at room temps is limited to a matter of  2 - 4 days.  In fermented sausages the cure 1 is basically a way to slow the spread of bad bugs until the innoculated culture can change the pH of the product (outside of survivable range) and the amount of moisture available (the water is chemically bound and not available) to the bugs.

 

Most smoked non-fermented sausage calls for curing at room temp for a couple of hours and then smoking.  Storage is in the refrigerator

 

Some of the recipes that call for Cure 2  Cold Smoked Polish, Russian Sausage, Salamis, Pepperoni (slow fermented and dry) call for cure times in the 68 degree range for 3 - 8 days and then drying in a cool place (58-65) degrees for up to several months and may or may not required a fermenting culture

 

I know it is clear as mud.  That is why I don't want to make specific recommendations on how long Cure 1 will keep a product safe in a slow smoke.  Just too many variables.  I do know that Nitrites dissipate fairly quickly, as little as 3 or 4 days depending on temp during the cure process thus the reason for using Cure 2 in the longer cure recipes.  As noted before the nitrates in cure 2 require bacterial action to produce the nitrite.   The effect of curing on a whole piece of meat (bacon) is different then in a commingled product like sausage, further complicating the estimate of times between recipes.

 

Nitrite is reduced to NO by temp and moisture.  This is what kills the bad guys and protects the product

Nitrate is reduced to nitrite by microbial activity and moisture  This does nothing to protect the product, the next step Nitrite to NO is the curative agent.

 

I am simply not comfortable enough with the resources available to me to hazard an answer to the question  "how long does cure 1 extend the life of a product in a slow smoker".  I have some food safety paperwork that may be a bit more specific but that information is normally discussing the amount of time in storage after preparation.

 

 

 



 

post #18 of 26
post #19 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by alblancher View Post

Down Low asked about Summer Sausage

 

The recipes I am familiar with treat summer sausage as a fermented sausage

 

I checked and the recipe I alluded to does indeed use Cure 1.  It is posted in the fermented sausages section and does require a F-LC culture.  Teewurst is cured for 48 hours at 64 degrees, Thuringer is cured for 24 hours at 86 degrees, Pepperoni (fast fermented - semi dry) is cured at 100 degrees  for 24 hours all use Cure 1 and added cultures.  The time after smoking when drying at room temps is limited to a matter of  2 - 4 days.  In fermented sausages the cure 1 is basically a way to slow the spread of bad bugs until the innoculated culture can change the pH of the product (outside of survivable range) and the amount of moisture available (the water is chemically bound and not available) to the bugs.

 

Most smoked non-fermented sausage calls for curing at room temp for a couple of hours and then smoking.  Storage is in the refrigerator

 

Some of the recipes that call for Cure 2  Cold Smoked Polish, Russian Sausage, Salamis, Pepperoni (slow fermented and dry) call for cure times in the 68 degree range for 3 - 8 days and then drying in a cool place (58-65) degrees for up to several months and may or may not required a fermenting culture

 

I know it is clear as mud.  That is why I don't want to make specific recommendations on how long Cure 1 will keep a product safe in a slow smoke.  Just too many variables.  I do know that Nitrites dissipate fairly quickly, as little as 3 or 4 days depending on temp during the cure process thus the reason for using Cure 2 in the longer cure recipes.  As noted before the nitrates in cure 2 require bacterial action to produce the nitrite.   The effect of curing on a whole piece of meat (bacon) is different then in a commingled product like sausage, further complicating the estimate of times between recipes.

 

Nitrite is reduced to NO by temp and moisture.  This is what kills the bad guys and protects the product

Nitrate is reduced to nitrite by microbial activity and moisture  This does nothing to protect the product, the next step Nitrite to NO is the curative agent.

 

I am simply not comfortable enough with the resources available to me to hazard an answer to the question  "how long does cure 1 extend the life of a product in a slow smoker".  I have some food safety paperwork that may be a bit more specific but that information is normally discussing the amount of time in storage after preparation.

 

 

 


Great post Al !!

I'm glad we got guys like you around to get into the technical stuff---My brain is no longer in shape for that kind of thing, and I have enough other worries to keep me from getting too tricky with my curing & smoking. This is why I try to stick to basics.

I agree that it's too risky to say where the risky length of time would start, but I think 15 hours would be no problem, as long as the next question isn't, "How about 18?, 24?, 30?, etc, etc....

Right?

 

 

Thanks Al,

Bear

 

post #20 of 26

Thanks Bear,

 

There again, what I might do at home on my smoker, with me in control of the sanitary procedures, and rolling the dice with my belly is not necessarily what I would recommend someone else do.

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