Sodium Nitrite----is it cured or is it not

blaise · Apr 7, 2017

The latest fad seems to be " UNCURED LUNCH MEAT " Sam's Club and others (Oscar Meyer ) supposedly no longer use sodium nitrite. Instead they use celery or spinach. Now, we know that celery and spinach are high in sodium nitrite. So wouldn't that still be a cure?

The problem is, ham doesn't taste like ham, pastrami isn't pastrami. In my opinion none of it is any good.

So, the questions are:

1. Have you tried this stuff?

2. Is it or isn't it cured?

3. Is this just another health food fad, like " gluten free " and MSG will kill you?

Shoot me some opinions.

Blaise

atomicsmoke · Apr 7, 2017

Greens have sodium nitrate, not nitrite. I assume that the commercial curing processes somehow facilitate the conversion to nitrite so the meat is cured.

I don't see any benefit to the consumer. The producer benefits from the trick because they advertise it as a "healthier version" - when is not.

I had "naturally cured chicken breast". Tastes the same. It is cured.

Gluten free is not a fad if you suffer from celiac disease. Gluten can make you very sick. But I don't see the obsession with it for the rest of us.

blaise · Apr 7, 2017

Your absolutely right----vegetables contain nitrates, only some of which is converted to nitrites. I should be more careful how I word a post. My apologies.

What I was looking for is opinions on the flavor of these products and whether we should all be forced to except them. In my opinion, the ham and pastrami taste nothing like the products I've been eating the last 50 years.

Listen guys, if this post is going to cause hard feelings or cause some kind of controversy ----I'd rather delete it------the poor choice in wording is my mistake, and no offense is intended towards anyone.

Blaise

dirtsailor2003 · Apr 7, 2017

Blaise said:
Your absolutely right----vegetables contain nitrates, only some of which is converted to nitrites. I should be more careful how I word a post. My apologies.
What I was looking for is opinions on the flavor of these products and whether we should all be forced to except them. In my opinion, the ham and pastrami taste nothing like the products I've been eating the last 50 years.

Listen guys, if this post is going to cause hard feelings or cause some kind of controversy ----I'd rather delete it------the poor choice in wording is my mistake, and no offense is intended towards anyone.

Blaise

You can edit your post title and the mistake in your first thread. That would help.

crankybuzzard · Apr 7, 2017

Blaise said:
Your absolutely right----vegetables contain nitrates, only some of which is converted to nitrites. I should be more careful how I word a post. My apologies.

What I was looking for is opinions on the flavor of these products and whether we should all be forced to except them. In my opinion, the ham and pastrami taste nothing like the products I've been eating the last 50 years.

Listen guys, if this post is going to cause hard feelings or cause some kind of controversy ----I'd rather delete it------the poor choice in wording is my mistake, and no offense is intended towards anyone.

Blaise

I think this could be a good and informational topic.

I doubt there will be any forcing of the consumers to accept this "safe" way of curing any time soon. Like atomic said, I've tasted the "naturally cured" stuff, and it tasted kind of like normally cured items. It was also about 20% higher in price when I last paid attention...

dirtsailor2003 · Apr 7, 2017

I've read numerous articles that mention the "naturally" cured meat products may not be any better than traditionally cured products. Most site that the nitrate levels are the same or close to the same. Sodium levels are another thing to look at. Some of the "naturally" cured products have higher sodium levels. All the articles agreed across the board that without testing each individual product it would be hard to determine if the naturally cured product is better for you or not. Use in moderation and all is good.

atomicsmoke · Apr 7, 2017

Blaise said:
Your absolutely right----vegetables contain nitrates, only some of which is converted to nitrites. I should be more careful how I word a post. My apologies.
What I was looking for is opinions on the flavor of these products and whether we should all be forced to except them. In my opinion, the ham and pastrami taste nothing like the products I've been eating the last 50 years.

Listen guys, if this post is going to cause hard feelings or cause some kind of controversy ----I'd rather delete it------the poor choice in wording is my mistake, and no offense is intended towards anyone.

Blaise

No controversy.

A thread like this is educational.

daveomak · Apr 7, 2017

The problem, as I see it, using vegetable products with nitrate... Nitrate must be broken down to nitrite before it attacks bacteria... that takes temps around 50 deg. F and bacteria to break it down to nitrite...

http://mattikaarts.com/blog/nitrates-and-nitrites/

Nitrates and Nitrites – what’s the difference?

When we talk about nitrites/nitrates, we are normally talking about Sodium Nitrite and Sodium Nitrate. There are other sources however (Potassium Nitrate, or Saltpetre) and we will talk about those later.

In short, quite a lot but also not that much. It is technically nitrITES that do the work. By “do the work” I mean give cured meat that lovely pink color, and sharp cured taste. Nitrite is also the delightful compound that helps prevent Cl. botulinum developing spores that gives us botulism poisoning – the most deadliest poisoning known to man.

So what do nitrATES do, and why do we use them? Well, consider nitrates to be a “slow release” form of nitrites. Bacteria in meat after a while will react with nitrate and create nitrITE. Since nitrite gets used up during the curing process, it is important to use some nitrates for meat curing that takes a while – like salami.

However, since it can take a while for the bacteria to start reacting with sodium nitrate, we should make sure that for meat curing, which can take many months, we use BOTH nitrite and nitrate to properly color the meat, give the tenderizing and taste effect, and also most importantly provide the required protection against botulism poisoning.

atomicsmoke · Apr 7, 2017

Dirt,

I bet my doc disagrees with my definition of moderation.

noboundaries · Apr 7, 2017

atomicsmoke said:
Dirt,

I bet my doc disagrees with my definition of moderation.

Don't they all!

skhunter · Apr 8, 2017

It is a marketing ploy.

shyzabrau · Apr 8, 2017

skhunter said:
It is a marketing ploy.

I just saw the commercials for the first time today.

"No nitrites or nitrates!" and then a little note at the bottom with an asterisk saying "Except for what occurs naturally in celery juice"

They still have to have the same level of nitrites for the cure - what does it matter the source? You're not eating any less of the nitrites...

daveomak · Apr 8, 2017

http://mattikaarts.com/blog/nitrates-and-nitrites/

I am a hippy and I want to cure meat naturally. Are there natural sources of nitrate I can use?

I can get with that too. Food grown without chemicals and pesticides are important to me, and I spend a good deal of my paycheck every month getting said produce from local farmers I know and trust.

The most widely used natural source of nitrates for meat curing is celery powder.

DON’T USE IT.

There, I said it. Here is the problem with it. There are absolutely no regulations or standards as to the amount of nitrate it contains. Even if you use the same amount in every salami you make, you could quite easily be adding too much or too little nitrate to your cured meats. Too little, and you might as well not bother. Too much can be dangerous.

Sodium Nitrate is a very simple compound (NaNO3 for you chemistry buffs) and the natural version, or lab made version is the same. No additional elements. Nitrate is nitrate.

Buy the proper cures for curing meat. Measure out your curing salts accurately, using a high precision scale. Don’t mess around celery powder.

The same incidentally goes for “saltpetre” or Potassium Nitrate as it is also known. This is one element in gun powder, but has also been used to cure meat for a long time (it was that impurity in some salt mines). The problem with saltpetre again is that it can contain a slightly varying amount of nitrate in it, and because it is used in gun powder, can be hard to get. Most people have now stopped using saltpetre in favor of sodium nitrate/nitrite based cures (Cure 1 and Cure 2).

blaise · Apr 9, 2017

Dave, thanks for the input. Good info.

As for commercial products----it would be nice to have a choice. Sam's club used to have 30 feet of coolers with various lunch meats. They are all now " uncured or naturally cured " so there must be a strong all mighty dollar aspect in there somewhere---- I'm just not seeing it. Could the new process be that much cheaper ? Or is it some preconceived notion that we all hate nitrites and nitrates?

Blaise

daveomak · Apr 9, 2017

The "scare" of nitrate in bacon, from way back when, has been proven "unfounded".... BUT, continued advertising by some groups has instituted a "new natural cure"... Folks are even selling nitrate as heart healthy..

Unfortunately, nitrate does not kill botulism until it is converted to nitrite, by naturally occurring bacteria, in the meat.. it is a slow process at temps around 50-60 deg. F..... nitrite does kill botulism... That's why cure #2 has nitrite and nitrate in it... nitrite for the instant kill at refrigeration temps and nitrate at 50-60 degree temps when you are fermenting meats and some folks use it in dry aging of meats, for the insurance....

Nitrate is converted to nitrite in the gut... so, one way or another, none of this whole conversation about "safe and natural" makes any sense...

Whether it be natural or man made, it's all exactly the same... man made nitrite and nitrate can be precisely measured, and added to meats, to make them safe to eat and kill harmful bacteria and pathogens...

Sodium Nitrite----is it cured or is it not

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