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Calling all sausage makers...Sausage binders. Why we use them and why we dont. Your thoughts and results - Page 2

Poll Results: Do you use a binder when making sausage

 
  • 24% (11)
    yes
  • 24% (11)
    no
  • 51% (23)
    sometimes
45 Total Votes  
post #21 of 38
Still new to sausage making, but I have tried with and without. Recently did some snack sticks that were my best with NFDM, but also made some fresh Italian without that turned out great. "Sometimes"
post #22 of 38
Just getting into the sausage making & very intrigued by this thread.... Be watchin for sure !
post #23 of 38
What would be nice is a list of what is considered "binders" for sausage making and what isn't. It seems that some binders are also cross over flavor enhancers.
post #24 of 38

BINDERS - Also known as Soy, Soy Protein Concentrate, Soy Flour, Soy Grits, Soy Protein Isolate - All soy products have a high protein value. This gives soy its binding capability, allowing you to add water (called added water) to your sausage for a moister product. These ingredients are used to prevent weight loss and shrinkage to products being processed in the smokehouse, by helping to retain the natural juices (called bound moisture) in the meat. This product also helps to bind the sausage together and can be used in meat products such as burgers to retain the natural juices from cooking out. Although not generally used in fresh sausages it may be added with good results.

 

You should use the following ratios:

Smoked products Use binder up to 5% of the meat weight.

 

Fresh products  Use binder up to 3% of the meat weight. Sausage binder weighs out at about 4 oz. per cup so 4 cups would equal about one lb.

 

Soy grits are used in patties and products like Hamburger Helper.

 

Soy protein concentrate is made from the refining process of soy beans 

 

These binders are ineffective for the most part of holding water and the natural juices, which are in the meat (called bound moister) at temperatures in excess of 165°F.

 

POTATO STARCH “BOOM” - A very high quality binder that will hold fat & has superior water holding capacity. Great for keeping very lean products moist during processing & cooking. Mix in this product after the cure, salt and seasonings have been added to meat mix. Recommended applications - reduced fat emulsified meat products, marinades and hams • Hi Viscosity  • Improves yield • Non allergenic  • Bland flavor - Will not add unacceptable flavor • One to one replacement with milk

 

 

CARROT BINDER “C-BIND”  

 

Use as an alternative to soy binder, soy protein & dry milk. This binder is created from carrot fiber. Will hold up to 27 times its weight in water thus retaining moisture & delivering a juicier product. It does not effect the taste of the product.

 

All natural "GRAS" approved Non HMO Non allergenic

Isolated Carrot Product 1-1/2 oz. Pkg- dos 25 lb of sausage

post #25 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nepas View Post
 

BINDERS - Also known as Soy, Soy Protein Concentrate, Soy Flour, Soy Grits, Soy Protein Isolate - All soy products have a high protein value. This gives soy its binding capability, allowing you to add water (called added water) to your sausage for a moister product. These ingredients are used to prevent weight loss and shrinkage to products being processed in the smokehouse, by helping to retain the natural juices (called bound moisture) in the meat. This product also helps to bind the sausage together and can be used in meat products such as burgers to retain the natural juices from cooking out. Although not generally used in fresh sausages it may be added with good results.

 

You should use the following ratios:

Smoked products Use binder up to 5% of the meat weight.

 

Fresh products  Use binder up to 3% of the meat weight. Sausage binder weighs out at about 4 oz. per cup so 4 cups would equal about one lb.

 

Soy grits are used in patties and products like Hamburger Helper.

 

Soy protein concentrate is made from the refining process of soy beans 

 

These binders are ineffective for the most part of holding water and the natural juices, which are in the meat (called bound moister) at temperatures in excess of 165°F.

 

POTATO STARCH “BOOM” - A very high quality binder that will hold fat & has superior water holding capacity. Great for keeping very lean products moist during processing & cooking. Mix in this product after the cure, salt and seasonings have been added to meat mix. Recommended applications - reduced fat emulsified meat products, marinades and hams • Hi Viscosity  • Improves yield • Non allergenic  • Bland flavor - Will not add unacceptable flavor • One to one replacement with milk

 

 

CARROT BINDER “C-BIND”  

 

Use as an alternative to soy binder, soy protein & dry milk. This binder is created from carrot fiber. Will hold up to 27 times its weight in water thus retaining moisture & delivering a juicier product. It does not effect the taste of the product.

 

All natural "GRAS" approved Non HMO Non allergenic

Isolated Carrot Product 1-1/2 oz. Pkg- dos 25 lb of sausage

 Some more good info........Thumbs Up

post #26 of 38
Mostly make smoked polish at 30% fat and been disappointed with the fat/moisture when cooked. Don't get me wrong, i like them and they go fast, but grilling them has sorta been a pain because of the flame ups, broiling spattered the oven and pan frying is a mess too.

Yesterday i experimented with knox gelatine as a binder and i am very happy with the results. No splits, doesnt sort of fall apart at all when stir frying slices, and no fires (or, at least, smaller fires).

It's a little tricky to work with but planning ahead paid off.
post #27 of 38

Hi All 

After several attempts at making Bratwurst and Italian sausage, and only one time I was happy with the outcome, without a binder..Next time I will using NFDM as a binder .Looking forward to the out come.

My sausage has been dry and crumbly. Hoping the NFDM will make them much better.

Dan

post #28 of 38
I make a lot of Salami and Snack Sticks using the same recipe for both. This recipe that I have adapted to my tastes uses one cup of NFPDM and the results have been excellent. The Salami are smoked for five hours to attain a nice smoke flavor and an internal temperature of 120 degrees. They are then put in a 170 degree hot water bath to attain a 152 degree internal temperature. They are then cold water bathed to stop the cooking process and then dried on towels and then hung to dry for two weeks to make a great hard Salami. The Snack Sticks are smoked for ten to twelve hours to attain the 152 degree internal temperature and then cooled at room temperature for a few hours and then refrigerated for two days and then cut up and vacuum sealed for distribution. They have never lasted long enough to be frozen. My family and friends devour them as they are made. My point is that both recipes turn out great with two different smoking and finishing techniques using the NFPDM as a binder. Also the Salami before it is dry cured for two weeks is very moist and tasty like the Salami you get in the New York Delis. It is just that my family likes the texture and intensified taste of the spices that I use from the dry curing process.
mds51
post #29 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBono View Post
 

Hi All 

After several attempts at making Bratwurst and Italian sausage, and only one time I was happy with the outcome, without a binder..Next time I will using NFDM as a binder .Looking forward to the out come.

My sausage has been dry and crumbly. Hoping the NFDM will make them much better.

Dan


Are you making these as a fresh or smoked sausage? If fresh, and they are dry and crumbly you need more fat and maybe more water in the mix. I make a lot of fresh brats and Italians and they come out fine without any binder. I only use a binder for smoked sausages.

post #30 of 38

DanBono,  I use powdered milk for fresh and smoked sausage.  It serves both types well, for it's job is to retain moisture.  One cup per 5 pounds of meat mix is what I  use for all types.  It's important to use the proper ratio of fat to lean depending what you are making.  Also the proper amount of water due to using powdered milk.  Now the water part is adjustable.  You should end up with a nice sticky mix when done.  For 25 pounds of polish for example I have used 5 to six cups of water with 5 1/2 cups being what I use most of the time.  That is not exactly a scientific formula on my part but just what has worked for me over time.  You will find that using powdered milk will give you a better product every time.

 

So why am I so hung up on using powdered milk?  I have been making sausage for over 40 years now and still going.  When I first started working as a butcher I seen the way it was made.  Didn't know what that powdery stuff was that was added to the large batches.  I was always fascinated over the whole procedure, but was more interested in the end results, because I wanted to go home and try some.  I worked with some great guy's back then and they filled me in with all that was used and why.  The binders were used exactly for the purpose I use them now.  However making sausage for sale, binders were also a factor in making profit.  Less loss, more gain.

 

Back then water was added pretty much as I use it now, by eyeball math instead of exact amounts each time.  Nobody get it exactly 80/20 or 50/50 or whatever fat to lean ration they want, but you can get close.  Same with judging the amount of liquid used in each batch.  My use of water or beer vary's, but not much from batch to batch.  5 pound batch or 25 pound batch.  They vary in liquid amounts or even spice amounts.  They never vary in cure amounts [if used] or powdered milk amounts.  What's important to me as far as texture is that sticky batch in the end that I will stuff into casings, patty, or bulk out.  Reinhard

post #31 of 38

Where i work we sell a "Gluten free" sausage that contains rice flour as a binder .The sausage comes fresh pre-made from a central plant and i dont recall the nutritional labeling as to what % is added.

post #32 of 38

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chewmeister View Post
 


Are you making these as a fresh or smoked sausage? If fresh, and they are dry and crumbly you need more fat and maybe more water in the mix. I make a lot of fresh brats and Italians and they come out fine without any binder. I only use a binder for smoked sausages.

Hi These were fresh hot smoked sausage. Only one time did they come moist and NOT crumbly. How does the fat content look to you? Do you have a good recipe for brats?

Thx Dan

post #33 of 38

Well, I'm no master sausage maker by any stretch but I've gone both ways and probably could get by without the binder but often wind up using the 1 cup of NFDM mixed in right before stuffing as a 'crutch'? since early on most recipes/formulas I ran across the person used either the NFDM or soy. I tried the soy and was not impressed with the texture of it when mixed in so have pretty much stuck with the NFDM. I will say that my first SS was a bust, as many here may remember my lamenting the outcome, but thinking back I now attribute that fail to using cheaper fatty ground beef. I also tried the ECA add once and once only so far. Now, I use buttermilk as the liquid for my Slim Jims/stix and allow at least 24 hours minimum in the fridge to get the tang. Seems to work for me and once less thing to add. So, 2 sausage makers I totally trust....Reinhard & Joe.....have different opinions. Sighhhhhhh, go figure......LOL, Willie

post #34 of 38

My experience is limited to grinding butts to make sausage patties, usually breakfast sausage but sometimes a chorizo version. When I first started, I would trim out fat but the result was too dry. Now I just grind everything and I still don't have fat running in the pan when I fry them.

 

I don't use any binders. I grind through a coarse plate, then mix in seasonings, and grind through a "hamburger" plate. I like the texture of the final result.

post #35 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef Willie View Post
 

Well, I'm no master sausage maker by any stretch but I've gone both ways and probably could get by without the binder but often wind up using the 1 cup of NFDM mixed in right before stuffing as a 'crutch'? since early on most recipes/formulas I ran across the person used either the NFDM or soy. I tried the soy and was not impressed with the texture of it when mixed in so have pretty much stuck with the NFDM. I will say that my first SS was a bust, as many here may remember my lamenting the outcome, but thinking back I now attribute that fail to using cheaper fatty ground beef. I also tried the ECA add once and once only so far. Now, I use buttermilk as the liquid for my Slim Jims/stix and allow at least 24 hours minimum in the fridge to get the tang. Seems to work for me and once less thing to add. So, 2 sausage makers I totally trust....Reinhard & Joe.....have different opinions. Sighhhhhhh, go figure......LOL, Willie

 

Too much water, poor quality/expiring , freezer burnt meat will also contribute to a grainy sausage. Are you grinding your own meat... Cfarmer or gary s started out with store bought ground meat and when he started grinding his own he seen what the difference was.....

post #36 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by boykjo View Post
 

 

Too much water, poor quality/expiring , freezer burnt meat will also contribute to a grainy sausage. Are you grinding your own meat... Cfarmer or gary s started out with store bought ground meat and when he started grinding his own he seen what the difference was.....

 

 

That was me, :th_crybaby2:

post #37 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by boykjo View Post
 

 

Too much water, poor quality/expiring , freezer burnt meat will also contribute to a grainy sausage. Are you grinding your own meat... Cfarmer or gary s started out with store bought ground meat and when he started grinding his own he seen what the difference was.....

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by c farmer View Post
 

 

 

That was me, :th_crybaby2:


Yep, got burned once & that was enough for me as well....always grind my own pork for sausages. However, on snack stix or Slim Jims I now will use GB in the tubes but only the 93/7. Mix a 4# chub with 1 # of ground butt, stuff into 21MM casings and it's spot on for my taste. I have finally got my 'go to' recipe for the Slim Jims...even have GF Approval but must leave out the heat for her. So, now to experiment without using the NFDM....Willie

post #38 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBono View Post
 

Hi These were fresh hot smoked sausage. Only one time did they come moist and NOT crumbly. How does the fat content look to you? Do you have a good recipe for brats?

Thx Dan


The fat content looks fine. I typically don't smoke brats and cook them as a fresh sausage. My go to recipe for a Sheboygan style brat is this;

 

5 lbs. pork shoulder

1 1/2 Tbs salt

1 Tbs sugar

1 tsp ground nutmeg

1/2 tsp ground mace

1/2 tsp ground coriander

2 tsp GBP

1/4 tsp marjoram

1 1/2 tsp ground ginger

1 cup ice water

 

I grind the pork through a 1/4" plate, add seasonings, then regrind through a 3/16" plate. I add the water and mix until it becomes sticky. Stuff into 33-35mm hog casings. I haven't used any binder as yet, but I may try using NFDM in my next batch to see if I notice any difference. To cook, I simmer them in a mix of water and beer with some sliced onion for about 20 minutes, then on to the grill to brown and crisp them up. Don't boil them, just simmer.

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