Natural Curing

pops6927 · Nov 13, 2012

A new product at Butcher Packer (SausageMaker doesn't carry it yet):

natveg.jpg

pops6927
Nov 13, 2012

Probably Celery powder, but for the people wanting to do curing without chemical lifestyle, this is it!

linguica · Nov 13, 2012

I just read an article that "naturally" cured meats can can contain more nitrites than those properly cured with Prague #1.

As soon as I locate the source I will post it.

Found it

http://ruhlman.com/2011/05/the-no-nitrites-added-hoax/

Comments.......?

venture · Nov 13, 2012

Can't help but have my doubts?

I am not in the camp of no nitrites/nitrates if used properly.

I am also not in the camp of the salt only cure. Especially now that our salt is missing the nitrites/nitrates that once occurred naturally in some parts of the world.

If it cures? Must be something going on there? Sure there are no nitrites/nitrates involved?

Reminds me of the glutamate controversy. Even though the glutamates occur naturally in many of our foods?

Then again, most of us are guilty of eating and enjoying "factory food"?

Good luck and good smoking.

diggingdogfarm · Nov 13, 2012

:icon_eek:
Yikes!!!!
Looks like it's Veg Stable[emoji]8482[/emoji] 504 Celery Juice Powder!
They're making a HUGE mistake in calling it a cure replacement, it's not in USDA's eyes!!!!!
It should only be treated as a seasoning and color enhancer.
Someone could get seriously hurt or worse!
Very irresponsible on their part!!!

As far as celery powder and the Ruhlman blog posts go.......

http://ruhlman.com/2011/02/meat-curing-safety-issues/
http://ruhlman.com/2011/05/the-no-nitrites-added-hoax/

re: No Nitrates Added Hoax.....

From the blog post above........
"It’s my belief that companies advertising their products as “nitrite-free,” are either uninformed themselves or are pandering to America’s ignorance about what is healthy and what is harmful in our foods. In other words, the term “no nitrites added” is a marketing device, not an actual health benefit."

They're not uninformed, pandering or using the terms as a sneaky marketing device, they're doing what the 'rulers' at the almighty USDA tell them to do as far as labeling goes.

From USDA materials.....

"The USDA currently does not recognize naturally occurring nitrates as effective curing agents in meats, so if using Celery Juice Powder for products being sold to the public, the end-products must be labeled "Uncured"

"Bacon can be manufactured without the use of nitrite, but must be labeled "Uncured Bacon, No Nitrates or Nitrites added" and bear the statement "Not Preserved, Keep Refrigerated Below 40 °F At All Times" — unless the final product has been dried according to USDA regulations, or if the product contains an amount of salt sufficient to achieve an internal brine concentration of 10% or more, the label does not have to carry the handle statement of "Not Preserved, Keep Refrigerated below ___" etc. Recent research studies have shown for products labeled as uncured, certain ingredients added during formulation can naturally produce small amounts of nitrates in bacon and, therefore, have to be labeled with the explanatory statement "no nitrates or nitrites added except for those naturally occurring in ingredients such as celery juice powder, parsley, cherry powder, beet powder, spinach, sea salt etc."

And there you have it!

~Martin

chef jimmyj · Nov 14, 2012

I am curious about the actual amount of Nitrite in the Veg Powder. Considering Nitrite is Nitrite regardless of whether it comes from Veggies, Sea Salt or Man made. As long as the amount of Veg 504 they recommend using provides the same PPM as the commonly recommended amount of Cure #1...There is nothing different or wrong with it.

I don't get the whole " Natural " vs Man Made anyway. What is the difference between filling a cup with Spring Water from a babbling brook or burning a whole lot of Hydrogen and Oxygen together and producing a cup of Man Made Water...Gotta love them kooky tree hugging Hippy types...JJ

daveomak · Nov 14, 2012

[h1]Sausage Maker carries it..... Read the note in red at the bottom of the product description.... [/h1][h1] [/h1][h1] [/h1][h1]#11080 Celery Juice Powder[/h1]

Your Price: $9.99

Item Number: 11080

Quantity:

Email this page to a friend

Celery Juice Powder contains naturally occuring nitrites and nitrates (which breakdown to nitrites with the help of bacteria native in meat itself). Celery Juice Powder is now commonly being used for giving sausages and meats a cured appearance and taste without the use of synthetic sodium nitrite/nitrate. Since nitrates take time to convert ('reduce') to nitrite and there is no consensus yet for a suggested curing time per amount Powder for consistent curing action. Products using vegetable based nitrites/nitrates (such as Celery Juice Powder) must be cooked prior to consumption.

Each packet (Net Wt. 1.25 oz.) can be used for 25 lbs. of ground meat.

1.25 oz. of Celery Juice Powder = approximately 8 tsp.

For 10 lb. recipes use 3 1/2 tsp Celery Juice Powder.

*The USDA currently does not recognize naturally occurring nitrates as effective curing agents in meats, so if using Celery Juice Powder for products being sold to the public, the end-products must be labeled "Uncured".

From what I have read, celery powder, and others in the same group, have mostly nitrate in them.... Dave

diggingdogfarm · Nov 14, 2012

Chef JimmyJ said:
I am curious about the actual amount of Nitrite in the Veg Powder. Considering Nitrite is Nitrite regardless of whether it comes from Veggies, Sea Salt or Man made. As long as the amount of Veg 504 they recommend using provides the same PPM as the commonly recommended amount of Cure #1...There is nothing different or wrong with it.

Even if the level of nitrate is known, there are other issues.
In the case of the celery powder, it's nitrate (NO3), not nitrite (NO2).
The nitrate (NO3), must convert to nitrite (NO2) before it can convert to nitric oxide (NO) which asks upon myoglobin to do the curing.
The conversion of nitrate (NO3) to nitrite (NO2) requires bacterial action which is only reliable at greater than refrigerator temperatures, that in itself is a major difference between nitrate and nitrite.
Nitrite works reliably at refrigerator temps, a major safety difference.
That's one of the main reasons why nitrite is favored over nitrate.
When it comes to protecting against botulinum, I'm not going to gamble with celery powder.

~Martin

chef jimmyj · Nov 14, 2012

Martin, From what I can see, Veg 504 is " Nitrite " specifically it is Pre-generated Nitrite or nitrite which has been converted from the naturally occurring Nitrate in Celery Juice to form that Nitrite... Tests have been conducted and if used in the specific and recommended proportions specified by the manufacturer there should be no problem. Here is a couple of source articles regarding testing...JJ

http://gradworks.umi.com/34/80/3480511.html

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120027896#b

pops6927 · Nov 14, 2012

Yes, I later found that in Sausagemaker's separate "Natural" designation, not in the Curing section, I apologize.

chef jimmyj · Nov 14, 2012

Pops6927 said:
Yes, I later found that in Sausagemaker's separate "Natural" designation, not in the Curing section, I apologize.

No need to apologize yet...The SMF Jury is still out...

...JJ

pops6927 · Nov 14, 2012

The point I am trying to make is that we now have sources to direct our clientele to suppliers who DO carry these products, and if used per directions, can do the job. It is not our place to judge the product unless we personally try it (which I will at the earliest financial opportunity); buyer beware and all that; we can now broaden our reach to potential members who want to embrace these methods. It is a natural progression that we must accept, embrace and promote if proven valid. Yes, Jeff, I am shamelessly promotional, lol).

diggingdogfarm · Nov 14, 2012

If it's truly natural and it's really celery juice powder, then it's nitrate, not nitrite.
You can see the reaction on the manufacturer's website, starting with NO3 (nitrate).
This is going to lead to even more confusion for folks new to curing, not a good thing in my opinion!!!

Again, it's not currently considered a safe and effective cure by the government.
See 9CFR424.21(6)(c) chart of approved substances and!or Directive 7120.1
"Safe and Suitable Ingredients Used in the Production of Meat, Poultry and Eggs Products".

We are following government recommendations here, right?

Just sayin'.

~Martin

diggingdogfarm · Nov 14, 2012

If it does ever become approved as a safe and reliable cure and safeguard against botulinum, that would be VERY cool...I'm all for natural.
Well. very cool until some moron decides that he doesn't want to pay $26 a pound for the stuff so he decides to make his own homemade celery powder (of unknown nitrate content) and sickens or kills a bunch of people!!!!
Knowing the way some folks operate, that's certainly conceivable!!!!

Until then........

~Martin

chef jimmyj · Nov 14, 2012

Yes we do follow USDA recommendations and I think we are talking about two completely different products. The Veg Stable (no number) from Florida Food that you are referencing in your last post appears to be different than the Veg Stable 504 that is pre-generated Nitrite as described in the two articles I posted. The article below talks not only about Veg Stable 504 but a Veg Stable 515 which is Ascorbic Acid. Bottom line it's Apples and Oranges, different products with different names and formulations from the same company. I would venture a guess that there is at least one Manufacturer that makes both Cure #1 and Cure #2 and there is no confusion that they are two different formulations...JJ

http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UFE0042011/00001

pops6927 · Nov 14, 2012

We must understand, these processes are no longer folklore. They exist, they are in the grocery stores with the appropriate wording on the packages, they are being sold. It is up to us to help others understand what these processes are, not being judgmental, provide as complete documentation as possible to our clientele that is not biased, and lead the way as responsible adults to help others embrace the processes that are going on just as we do with both wet and dry curing. Knowledge is power and we need to supply the power of Truth to this and bring it from the murky to the light.

chef jimmyj · Nov 14, 2012

I have to agree Pops. There is a big difference between this Veg Stable 504 and going to the local Spice Shop or Health food store and buying Celery Juice Powder. I seriously doubt a company the size and with a reputation for quality like Butcher Packer would sell a product labeled as, " a replacement for DQ Curing Salt " unless it was in fact a Proven and Safe substitute that works Exactly the same...JJ

diggingdogfarm · Nov 14, 2012

There are serious questions regarding "natural cures" being adequate protection against some very serious pathogens!!!
It shouldn't be taken lightly!!!!!!

I looked into the VegStable some more.

The VegStable 504 is according to the manufacturer "pre-converted" to nitrite, which begs the question, how then can they call it natural?

VegStable[emoji]8482[/emoji] 502 * (celery powder, sea salt)-30,000-
33,000 ppm nitrate; recommended use level of
0.2% to 0.4%

VegStable[emoji]8482[/emoji] 504 * (celery powder, sea salt)-10,000-
12,000 ppm nitrite (pre-converted, starter and
holding time not required); recommended use level
of 0.2% to 0.4%

Regardless, they're not considered safe alternatives to conventional cure.

Here is some information to consider:

Source: Iowa State University

Products "cured" with celery juice powder labeled, natural and organic “uncured”.

"It appears that natural and organic “uncured”
RTE processed meat products will permit
greater growth of L. monocytogenes and Cl.
perfringens and earlier toxin production by Cl.
botulinum than conventionally cured
products."

Folks, be safe, use REAL cure!!!!

~Martin

chef jimmyj · Nov 14, 2012

Well my Degrees are only in Electrical Engineering Technology, Culinary Arts and Restaurant Management. So since I am not a Chemist or Microbiologist, I am getting out of this discussion...JJ

diggingdogfarm · Nov 14, 2012

I emailed the manufacturer for complete use instructions and asked about 504's effectiveness against C. Botulinum.

Waiting.......

~Martin

BGKYSmoker · Nov 14, 2012

I used some of the celery juice powder. Had a funky taste like soapish so i tossed the 3 lbs. I'll stick with modern cure or a back up of MTQ

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