40° - 140° in 4 hours discussion

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That's why the equipment in my Mom's restaurants was easily movable, so the place could be thoroughly cleaned regularly.
I don't eat out in restaurants very much because of what I've seen in some places over the years.
~Martin
That's why you'd never want to see how ground meat is made in a grocery store either.  1, 3 and 5 lb. chubs from the manufacturer is the only way I buy ground meat now.  Pink Slime?  No, not a thing wrong with it at all.  Chubs have a 45 day shelf life.  In-store ground meat has a 1 day shelf life.  Big Big difference in bacteria levels, for sure!
 
That's why you'd never want to see how ground meat is made in a grocery store either.  1, 3 and 5 lb. chubs from the manufacturer is the only way I buy ground meat now.  Pink Slime?  No, not a thing wrong with it at all.  Chubs have a 45 day shelf life.  In-store ground meat has a 1 day shelf life.  Big Big difference in bacteria levels, for sure!


That's why I grind my own meat.



~Martin
 
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I love my smoked meats and never eat a meal without some type of meat, but if ya'll keep it up, you'll turn me into a vegetarian.
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Martin, I know you are right here. Human nature in many cases tends to ignore the details. We are always in a hurry or have something else on our minds...My Mentor once said," People will always sneeze into their hand, or brush their Hair to one side, or scratch that itch, but as long as you are aware it's bad you may catch yourself sometime..." Nobody is perfect all the time...

Let's see...Bandaid No Gloves...Warming to room temp, done in some restaurants but still against Health code, an Inspector with a thermometer would not be happy!...Pepper Mill in contact with the Bird...Wiping Hands on a side towel that should only be used for handling hot pans...

It is true many Chef's become complacent with success and celebrity status. They are less frequently working in the trenches and lose their edge neglecting that which was common place safety practices...That was one of the Cleanest Kitchens I have ever seen!...JJ
 
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Yeah, he also contaminates the end of the string on the roll, the salt bowl, and the oven door handle. Quite a few blunders in a video that's less than 4 minutes long.

I agree, the kitchen does look immaculate!!!


~Martin
 
When a poor beginner does something crazy he's foolish or stupid, but when a respected 'pro' does something crazy, there's always some excuse!! LOL

I don't get it!
 
SausageBoy, that is the difference between the two.....the beginner will take the punishment, but the Pro will make and excuse to cover his butt, right or wrong!!! Even if he blames it in the beginner, at least that's what I have seen over the years in my field......
 
Not sure if this helps your concerns regarding this site but it clearly states in the guidelines for this topic and I quote.

" Some Guidelines are Standard on SMF...It is important for your Safety, that any Meats that have been Punctured, Probed, Injected or Ground be cooked or smoked at a temperature, typically 225*F or greater, that gets the Internal Temperature of the meat from 40*F to 140*F in 4 Hours or less...Frequently called the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule. (This does not include meats containing Cure #1, Cure #2 and Morton's Tender Quick.)

This is how the rule was established..."
 
I'm new to the forum and this was a great thread to read.  Having never smoked any meat, I'm learning all I can and this one is top notch.

Thanks.
 
Not sure if this helps your concerns regarding this site but it clearly states in the guidelines for this topic and I quote.

" Some Guidelines are Standard on SMF...It is important for your Safety, that any Meats that have been Punctured, Probed, Injected or Ground be cooked or smoked at a temperature, typically 225*F or greater, that gets the Internal Temperature of the meat from 40*F to 140*F in 4 Hours or less...Frequently called the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule. (This does not include meats containing Cure #1, Cure #2 and Morton's Tender Quick.)

This is how the rule was established..."
What about a large piece of meat that was cut in half, does it fall under this rule?
 
Not sure if this helps your concerns regarding this site but it clearly states in the guidelines for this topic and I quote.

" Some Guidelines are Standard on SMF...It is important for your Safety, that any Meats that have been Punctured, Probed, Injected or Ground be cooked or smoked at a temperature, typically 225*F or greater, that gets the Internal Temperature of the meat from 40*F to 140*F in 4 Hours or less...Frequently called the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule. (This does not include meats containing Cure #1, Cure #2 and Morton's Tender Quick.)

This is how the rule was established..."
What about a large piece of meat that was cut in half, does it fall under this rule?
S2K9K, evening.....  If a large roast is cut in half, theoretically, the cut has bacteria and will be exposed to the high heat when placed in the smoker.... No bacteria was "inserted" or "injected" below the surface of the meat and will become "dead" in the first few minutes or at least "dead" in the first hour or so.....  It just becomes another roast only smaller.....   Dave
 
Thanks Dave, That's what I thought, I thought it was when an injection actually could push the bacteria deep inside the meat.
 
First off, I feel that the 40-140 in 4 rule as a guide is a very good starting point for as mentioned earlier about 90% of what is discussed here. Yes, there are some items that will take longer and some will go much faster. I personally used 40 - 140 in 4hr guide before I saw it here, because of wanting to get the food out of the temperature danger zone faster. I fully support that as a guide...

Where I work we follow Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points (HACCP) for all of our food storage, preparation, cooking, holding, transportation and service. It is not mandated by the Sate or FDA, but it is what we use and our company serves millions of meals a year. A bit on the history of HACCP http://www.haccpforexcellence.com/home/history_of_haccp  . I have looked for a mandated rule to support the 40-140 in rule, that is set in stone. Could not find it either, however it is a good guide to follow. With HACCP they talk about time at the temperature (see below). The only time I see a time with heating things up is in reheating (40-165 in <2hrs). When cooling we look at how fast we can cool it. Just a guide we use 140 to 70 in 2hrs then 70 to <40 in 4hrs. Does not make since to me either, but that is what the Florida Sate inspector looks for as well.

A suggested plan by the FDA  http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/...odSafetyHACCPPrinciples/Operators/default.htm

 Below was taken from (saved me from typing it all out
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)  http://www.webstaurantstore.com/guide/43/haccp-and-critical-control-point-guide.html

In the United States, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) establishes minimum internal temperatures for cooked foods. It is important to remember that these values can be superseded by state or local health code requirements, but they cannot be below the FDA limits. Temperatures should be measured with a probe thermometer in the thickest part of meats, or the center of other dishes, avoiding bones and container sides. Minimum internal temperatures are set as follows:
  • 165°F (74°C) for 15 seconds
    • Poultry (such as whole or ground chicken, turkey, or duck)
    • Stuffing
    • Stuffed meats, fish, poultry, and pasta
    • Any previously cooked foods that are reheated from a temperature below 135°F (57°C), provided they have been refrigerated or warm less than 2 hours
    • Any potentially hazardous foods cooked in a microwave, such as poultry, meat, fish, or eggs
  • 155°F (68°C) for 15 seconds
    • Ground meats (such as beef or pork)
    • Injected meats (such as flavor-injected roasts or brined hams)
    • Ground or minced fish
    • Eggs that will be held for a length of time before eaten
  • 145°F (63°C) for 15 seconds
    • Steaks and chops such as beef, pork, veal, and lamb
    • Fish
    • Eggs cooked for immediate service
  • 145°F (63°C) for 4 minutes
    • Roasts (can be cooked to lower temperatures for increased lengths of time) ( we will cook roasts to 130 and hold for 121 min)
  • 135°F (57°C) for 15 seconds
    • Cooked fruits or vegetables that will be held for a length of time before eaten
    • Any commercially processed, ready-to-eat foods that will be held for a length of time before eaten
In addition, hot food must be held at a minimum internal of 135°F (57°C) if it is not immediately consumed. The temperature must be checked every 4 hours or else labeled with a discard time. Although monitored hot food can be held indefinitely in this way without a food safety concern, the nutritional value, flavor, and quality can suffer over long periods.
 
I agree ^^.  in the hot food deli sections had to conform to those standards eventually.  In the 70's and 80's, even up to the early 90's you had to cook chicken to 185° and hold it at 165°,  which meant after a ½ hr, it was as dry as chalk, lol and you had to toss it and make a new batch!
 
Great addition to the Thread! Thanks Jarjarchef...JJ
 
I hope that nobody thinks that the reason I'm asking these questions is because I'm trying to start trouble.

As I've said above, it's a concern of mine that a general rule such as "40 to 140 in 4" may be used in a way that can seriously endanger someone, especially when there isn't a specified minimum cooking temperature.

Let me give a real world example.
This was the subject of quite some debate at another venue.

A guy "cold smoked" un-cured chicken wings at a temp of 80 to 100 degrees for 3 hours (the most dangerous area of the danger zone), he them finished them in about 45-50 minutes to a safe cooking temperature, the entire process was completed within 4 hours.

Are you comfortable promoting the "40 to 140 in 4" rule in a case like that?
I'm not!
I know what I would do in a case like that, but to assure others that it's okay for meat, especially high risk chicken, to dwell at temps like that for 3 hours, even though recommended finish temps are reached within 4, is, in my opinion, irresponsible.

See why I think it's important to clarify this rule?
 
Martin,

I've always seen the 40 to 140 in 4 rule offered as guidance in warm smoking.  At no time have I ever seen cold smoking referenced.  It's a totally different standard, like putting diesel fuel in a car designed for gasoline.  The standard of the diesel fuel isn't bad...the practice of applying that standard to an unapproved solution is.

The USDA's guidence on smoking uncured meats is here:

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Smoking_Meat_and_Poultry/index.asp

It references a specific chamber temperature range, and advises a trip through 40-140 in an expedient manner (specifically, it advises against using frozen meats because they linger too long in that range).

Perhaps the better way to publish this guideline is to first define what warm smoking is, then define the practice of 40 to 140 in 4 as applying to warm smoking only.

Just my two cents.
 
Cold smoking is an entirely different animal.

Oh, it's easy to find the "Danger Zone" (temperatures between 40 and 140 °F) mentioned by the 'rulers' and others, no problem with that at all.
Want I haven't found, and no one else seems to be able to find it either, is the 40 and 140 °F in 4 hours and in conjunction with a specific minimum safe cooking temperature.
That's not to say that it's not a good rule, to the contrary, it's just not backed up by the 'rulers'.
Heck, the almighty 'rulers' can't get they're act together and decide on a minimum safe barbecuing temperature, it's "between 225 and 300 °F throughout the cooking process." in the link you posted and "smoker should be maintained at 250 to 300 °F for safety." here... http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Factsheets/Barbecue_Food_Safety/index.asp, apparently a $55 billion dollar a year budget isn't quite enough. :biggrin:

Rant off!

~Martin
 
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