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indaswamp indaswamp what your take/opinion on Marninski's book stating that you should do a cook step...? a bit confused there kind of contradicted the whole point of dry cured meats? is it something you practice? the paragraph called "Safety Options And Examples of Validated Processes"
That is insurance for commercial producers in the U.S....

They have since relaxed that requirement, but you have to do validation testing on batches to prove the product is safe. At least this is my understanding.

Just be very familiar with the 4 safety hurdles and how they stack synergistically to favor good bacteria and inhibit the bad. Also understand the degree hours formula for safe fermentation...this gives you a good idea on how long you can leave the salami out at temps. above 60*F and still have a safe product.

And for traditional salami-always start with the freshest whole cuts you can get....you will get the best results..
 
indaswamp indaswamp what your take/opinion on Marninski's book stating that you should do a cook step...? a bit confused there kind of contradicted the whole point of dry cured meats? is it something you practice? the paragraph called "Safety Options And Examples of Validated Processes"
I do not believe your interpretation of what Marianski wrote is correct. He did not advocate a cook step for everything, and certainly not for salami. In fact, he has 3 books on salami with specific recipes for hundreds that do NOT use a cook step. And since heat treatment/cooking destroys the flavor producing cultures that must operate after acidification, to achieve most salami flavor, it is in fact not possible to cook everything.

He does say that due to FDA regs, litigation risk, insurance etc, many producers DO include a pathogen lethality treatment in several products that USED to be fermented/dried only. Things that are just quickly acidified, but don't use secondary flavor cultures. Such as Lebanon bologna, and American pepperoni.
 
I do not believe your interpretation of what Marianski wrote is correct. He did not advocate a cook step for everything, and certainly not for salami. In fact, he has 3 books on salami with specific recipes for hundreds that do NOT use a cook step. And since heat treatment/cooking destroys the flavor producing cultures that must operate after acidification, to achieve most salami flavor, it is in fact not possible to cook everything.

He does say that due to FDA regs, litigation risk, insurance etc, many producers DO include a pathogen lethality treatment in several products that USED to be fermented/dried only. Things that are just quickly acidified, but don't use secondary flavor cultures. Such as Lebanon bologna, and American pepperoni.
That is insurance for commercial producers in the U.S....

They have since relaxed that requirement, but you have to do validation testing on batches to prove the product is safe. At least this is my understanding.

Just be very familiar with the 4 safety hurdles and how they stack synergistically to favor good bacteria and inhibit the bad. Also understand the degree hours formula for safe fermentation...this gives you a good idea on how long you can leave the salami out at temps. above 60*F and still have a safe product.

And for traditional salami-always start with the freshest whole cuts you can get....you will get the best results..
thanks inda and dave yeah i was a little confused for a minute as in most salami arent cooked at all ....your guy's replies make perfect sense glad i asked!
 
thanks inda and dave yeah i was a little confused for a minute as in most salami arent cooked at all ....your guy's replies make perfect sense glad i asked!
Say, I will throw this out: if you are wanting to get into fermented meats, but DON'T want to do a fridge drying chamber and commit 2 months to a product, then some of these COOKED fermented products can be done in 2 or 3 days and give great results. Honestly, I do much more cooked ferments than I do dry-cured. Here is my list of Best Products, more lunchmeat stuff:
1. Taylor pork roll. 18-24hr ferment, then sous vide OR 2hr smoke then SV, at 140-145f. I have a post with pics here somewhere. So does DougE, but I don't think his thread has ferment.
2. Lebanon bologna. Same deal. If you want it drier, smoker at 140f, light smoke, 12-15 hrs. Vacpack, let equalize in fridge.
3. Cotto salami. LPoli recipe. Don't have to ferment, but it's nice if you do
4. American pepperoni. Same as #1. IMO no smoke for pepperoni, but some do.
5. SUMMER SAUSAGE!! This stuff is SUPPOSED to be fermented, everyone mostly uses ECA to simulate the ferment lactic acid tang flavor, but it's super easy to just ferment it 1 day instead. This is like 90% of what many folks make.

For all those, I like the Christian Hansen LHP or FLC cultures, at 100f ferment they take 12-18 hrs. I like pH 4.7-4.9, pretty tangy, and like 0.7 to 0.9% dextrose for total sugars seems to give me that range.

Also, YOU CAN ferment in SV in sealed package set at 100f, the acidification ferment is anaerobic, confirmed this with Christian Hansen tech folks a few years ago. Then you can just go right to SV same bag. You get some liquid from the ferment, but it's fine when done. Very efficient.
 
One of the reasons I fell off so deep into dry curing is because of the flavor development with traditionally made products. Nothing commercially made in the U.S. can ever come close. I can't tell you how many people will tell me they don't like salami when I bring a board to a party, only to later try some after all the "Wow" 's and "OMG this is amazing" comments. It is night and day difference between the two.

I am currently looking to buy single strain staphylococcus bacteria in a pouch so I can increase the numbers of flavor forming bacteria in a salami for even more depth of flavor.....
 
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Say, I will throw this out: if you are wanting to get into fermented meats, but DON'T want to do a fridge drying chamber and commit 2 months to a product, then some of these COOKED fermented products can be done in 2 or 3 days and give great results. Honestly, I do much more cooked ferments than I do dry-cured. Here is my list of Best Products, more lunchmeat stuff:
1. Taylor pork roll. 18-24hr ferment, then sous vide OR 2hr smoke then SV, at 140-145f. I have a post with pics here somewhere. So does DougE, but I don't think his thread has ferment.
2. Lebanon bologna. Same deal. If you want it drier, smoker at 140f, light smoke, 12-15 hrs. Vacpack, let equalize in fridge.
3. Cotto salami. LPoli recipe. Don't have to ferment, but it's nice if you do
4. American pepperoni. Same as #1. IMO no smoke for pepperoni, but some do.
5. SUMMER SAUSAGE!! This stuff is SUPPOSED to be fermented, everyone mostly uses ECA to simulate the ferment lactic acid tang flavor, but it's super easy to just ferment it 1 day instead. This is like 90% of what many folks make.

For all those, I like the Christian Hansen LHP or FLC cultures, at 100f ferment they take 12-18 hrs. I like pH 4.7-4.9, pretty tangy, and like 0.7 to 0.9% dextrose for total sugars seems to give me that range.

Also, YOU CAN ferment in SV in sealed package set at 100f, the acidification ferment is anaerobic, confirmed this with Christian Hansen tech folks a few years ago. Then you can just go right to SV same bag. You get some liquid from the ferment, but it's fine when done. Very efficient.
See previous posts I already made the leap lol just gotta get the fridge set up!! All my cultures and controllers should be coming soon , and yes I will start with the quicker ones first just to do a few batches of fast fermented I appreciate the list Lebanon is definitely one I’d like to try I’m also a huge fan of hard salami at the local delis can’t eat enough of it … also salumi is one of my goals
 
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One of the reasons I fell off so deep into dry curing is because of the flavor development with traditionally made products. Nothing commercially made in the U.S. can ever come close. I can't tell you how many people will tell me they don't like salami when I bring a board to a party, only to later try some after all the "Wow" 's and "OMG this is amazing" comments. It is night and day difference between the two.

I am currently looking to buy single strain staphylococcus bacteria in a pouch so I can increase the numbers of flavor forming bacteria in a salami for even more depth of flavor.....
Yeah I’m excited to try it and it seems it’s like with any sausage made at home Taste way better than commercially made!!
 
First real salami should be 38-42mm hog casings....OR 45-50mm beef middles. This is the optimum size for drying....just thick enough for a reasonable time in the chamber, yet small enough that dry ring should not be a problem.

But, yes, you can do some sticks just to dial the chamber in....
 
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