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Doing this one thing while making sausages can KILL you, please STOP! "2 guys and a cooler"

indaswamp

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Cajuneric Cajuneric ,

I have the upmost respect for you and the information you put out. Thanks to you for getting me going when I first dove into the world of salumi and salami 4 years ago. All the stuff you put out is very well researched. What I don't understand is why the source of the sodium nitrate would matter? Chemically, the sodium nitrates in plants is no different than the synthetic version we use in curing meats. My point being that people don't give a thought to it when eating a raw celery sticks...and the concentration would be higher than that found when making cured meats.

Great, frank, open discussion....good stuff.....
 

daveomak

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Did anyone get to the part, in Eric's video, it's about the cancer-causing nitrosamines ???
 

Cajuneric

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Cajuneric Cajuneric ,

I have the upmost respect for you and the information you put out. Thanks to you for getting me going when I first dove into the world of salumi and salami 4 years ago. All the stuff you put out is very well researched. What I don't understand is why the source of the sodium nitrate would matter? Chemically, the sodium nitrates in plants is no different than the synthetic version we use in curing meats. My point being that people don't give a thought to it when eating a raw celery sticks...and the concentration would be higher than that found when making cured meats.

Great, frank, open discussion....good stuff.....
I agree. I think this should be talked about more often. From my research the biggest difference that i've seen is that plants contain antioxidants (cure accelerators) that help with the conversion.
 

Cajuneric

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Here's a fun study.
 

indaswamp

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Good points....

I still think it would be un-neccesary to leave the cure out prior to taste sampling if you just drank a glass of orange juice afterwards.
 

Cajuneric

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We understand the warnings and don't promote eating unconverted nitrites. Everything should be taken into consideration and common sense should be applied. Smoked and processed meats have been found to cause cancer so should we all relinquish our smokers and stop processing meats. Lets not be eristic and let common sense endure.
Not trying to be debatable, i was just trying to understand your position a little better. So you and I are on the same page. Promoting that it's ok to eat unconverted nitrites would be terrible advice and the reason is that it is potentially very bad for your health.. When you belittled the video as just another "fishing video" I felt as if you were making light of a situation that many people are actually unaware of.
 

zwiller

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I will hunt for a cite but it was my understanding that your saliva converts the nitrites before even hitting the gut. That said, I never fry test. Just not my thing. I HATE typing sodium erythorbate so I am going on record now that the acronym for it is SE. :emoji_laughing: Besides for health, I find the use of SE gives a nice boost of color and flavor. Not a huge amount but noticeable. Same goes for ascorbic acid (vitamin c) for fresh sausages gives a similar effect.
 

indaswamp

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I will hunt for a cite but it was my understanding that your saliva converts the nitrites before even hitting the gut.
Yep. That is my understanding as well. See the link to Dr. Blonder's site I posted previously.he discussed just this fact.

So note to self-chew well when consuming cured meat products.....or celery...or spinach.....LOL!
 

bill1

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Cajuneric Cajuneric ,

...What I don't understand is why the source of the sodium nitrate would matter? ...
I think raw celery can have sodium nitrate at the 0.1% level, similar (or even a bit over) the health limits put on commercial bacon and sausage. The difference is there's a lot of us that love to eat meat by the pound while those that eat celery by the pound are few and far between.

Cured meats need nitrates. Too much is bad; too little is bad. But whether you're adding it from celery powder or Prague powder kinda' doesn't matter... just make sure you do the calcs and know exactly what you're doing. Which was the point of the video.
 

boykjo

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Not trying to be debatable, i was just trying to understand your position a little better. So you and I are on the same page. Promoting that it's ok to eat unconverted nitrites would be terrible advice and the reason is that it is potentially very bad for your health.. When you belittled the video as just another "fishing video" I felt as if you were making light of a situation that many people are actually unaware of.
My intention wasn't to belittle your video. My point in my first post was your title was fishing trying to exaggerate and catch someone's attention like you see in a video's main clip with a fishing pole bent down into the water. As you just said here " it is potentially very bad for your health.." would have been a more appropriate choice for a title. My second point was you would have to eat a lot of test samples to actually die. I watch your videos which are very informative and I respect your knowledge which helps a lot of people.

Boykjo

 
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zwiller

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Someone needs to tell this stuff to those folks drinking 1lb of celery juiced everyday.
 

daveomak

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Several folks have missed the point of the video...
Start at 4:30 and listen again... and again...
It's the formation of nitrosamines in your gut from sodium nitrites/sodium nitrates and amines that form nitrosamines that can/will cause cancer...
if there are words you don't understand, do a search...
 

GaryHibbert

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Great advice, Dave. Thanks for the video.
Gary
 

zwiller

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Here's my take on it...

The salivary glands and bacteria in your mouth convert nitrate/nitrite to nitric oxide (which is actually good for you). https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27872324/

THAT BEING SAID, it is my understanding nitrosamine formation is ACTUALLY created by cooking/heat with nitrate/nitrite in the presence of proteins/amino acids so it is likely that the fry test could create nitrosamines, so Eric is still technically on point. I never fry test so...
 

noboundaries

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I only use cure #1 and salts in my jerky and sausage. If I could sum his advice in one sentence it would be, "Don't taste test anything until the raw meat has been cured for at least 12-24 hours." Is that accurate?
 

BGKYSmoker

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I taste the raw meat while making sausage, this way if i need to add.

Guess y'all aint never had Texas Parisa?
 

SmokinEdge

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I’ve been down this rabbit hole fairly far at one time just for my own knowledge. There are studies that show nitrosamines (from nitrites) can increase cancer risk in lab animals, but nothing conclusive in humans. Sure there are studies that can be found that “link” nitrites and nitrosamines to gastrointestinal cancer in people, but again, none are conclusive.

In my research this all appears to start in the 1970’s with all of the other food scares. We were told then that processed meats such as Spam, Potted meat, lunchen meats, ham, bacon, deviled ham, etc……. Would kill us because of high salt and nitrites.
We were also told that eating beef would raise our cholesterol and kill us, they tried to destroy the beef industry. As a farm kid at the time I remember this being particularly brutal on the beef market.
Then they told us that eggs would kill us because of the cholesterol. This was a time of food wars, industries scrambling for market share. Do a “study “ and put information out to the public that your largest competitor has a product that will eventually kill you seems the typical game plan To promote your own product over others then. Funny how stuff resonates for decades.

The arguments over nitrate/nitrites is moot in my opinion, and here is why.
1) They claim nitrates in vegetables some how doesn’t count because these are “ natural” nitrates, and that nitrate is perfectly harmless. It’s the evil synthetic nitrite that is the problem. Research that for yourself.
2) Pretty much all nitrate/nitrites consumed in the food chain generally comes from farmers and producers applying fertilizer (nitrogen) to the soil. Most all of this nitrogen is man made or synthetic.
3) Almost all nitrogen based fertilizer today are in the same life circle. Even bat guano is produced from bats eating bugs that consume farm fertilizer. And manure from livestock comes from animals eating feed stuff fertilized on farm with the same nitrogen.
4) There really is no chemical or building block difference in curing salt nitrate/nitrite with that in celery, Kahle, spinach or beets. It all comes from the same source.

If we drink beet juice or eat bacon cured with celery powder, we are consuming the exact same nitrates As is in curing salts.

Eating a pinch of raw sausage batter is really no different than eating raw spinach or Kahle, chemically it’s not different. So eat your fruits and green leafy vegetables ladies and gentlemen but pass on sausage. Oh and no beer consumption that’s high in bad nitrates also.
 

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