Temperature Probe Insertion Question -- Timing

[redwood carlos]

Here in the UK it's 75° or 172°f  and would be taken in the thickest / most dense part of the food.  (there are exceptions)   I would hazard a guess and say there wouldn't be many people who have not broken the guidelines at some point, I know I have!

Do you guys also torch the patch before you inject fluids into the meat before cooking??

It does not matter if you go from 40-140 in under 4 hours. If you do not go from 40-140 in under 4 hours you run  the risk, no matter how small, of foodborne illness. You decide if that is what you want to do.

When you get in your car you run the risk of injury through accident.

When you eat you run the rick of chocking.

etc...

 

[tomzo]

That is the other point that I was going to make.   There is a cottage industry predicated on sticking needles into raw meat to inject prior to cooking.   You see it on all the BBQ shows and it appears to be common practice.   It would seem to me that this would be causing all sorts of problems but you just don't hear about it - or at least I have not heard of it.

Tom

 

[dcarch]

"------------------- I have never seen where it has made that much of a difference with having a 3"-6" x 1/8" piece of metal in the meat. Not saying it does not make a slight difference, but it is not noticeable. Any of the heat that may transfer from the probe to the meat is lost very quickly. ------"

I would not disagree with you totally, but then you see people do this a lot:
[h1]http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/143921/spatchcocked-island-chicken[/h1][h1]“Spatchcocked Island Chicken”[/h1]
It would seem to me that in this case, the probe is reading very distorted temperature readings. The metal conductivity will make a big different in this case.

dcarch
[h1][/h1]

 

[chef jimmyj]

I in no way want to make anybody so scared that they go Vegan...This is way more about having an understanding of food borne illness and knowing that to get sick a series of things have to go wrong. Example...You can take a Pork Butt, roll it in the Cats Litter Box, drop it on the bathroom floor a couple times, Spit all over it then Inject and Probe it, followed up with an uneventful smoke at 225*F to an IT of 205*F...And Absolutely Nothing Will Happen To You...Well maybe a Funky aftertaste in your mouth...BUT...You take the same roast, contaminated at the slaughter house, warm it to room temp because you read that saves fuel in the smoker, inject and probe it and put some Rub on. One hour into the smoke you fall asleep and the fire dies. Your wife wakes you up 3 hours later, you light the fire and smoke at 300*F to catch up, smoking to an IT of 200*F, 'cause you know bacteria dies at 160*F...Everybody eats and 1-6 hours later the entire family don't feel so good. That is the difference...

It is doing what you can to be safe...Wash the meat before Injecting...Using a Salty Rub (bacteria hates salt) or Acidic Mustard on the surface before Probing...Hit a spot with a Torch just because it's in your hand...

No need to be Worried or Paranoid just have Understanding....JJ

 

[jarjarchef]

I would not disagree with you totally, but then you see people do this a lot:

[h1][SIZE=12pt]http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/143921/spatchcocked-island-chicken[/SIZE][/h1]

[h1][SIZE=12pt]“Spatchcocked[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Island[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Chicken”[/SIZE][/h1]

It would seem to me that in this case, the probe is reading very distorted temperature readings. The metal conductivity will make a big different in this case.

dcarch
[h1][/h1]

I am a bit confused. Your first statement was about the probe transferring heat to the meat and causing that area to cook faster and in turn cause a false reading of hotter than actually what the rest is. Then you link a thread that has the probe in the thigh of chicken (I'll give you it will not read properly due to what looks to be just under the skin) and you are referring to it getting a false reading, but not refering to the probe transferring heat and cooking area faster.

 

[dcarch]

May be I am not being clear.

As I said, the much higher thermal conductivity of metal in some cases will need to be considered in the use of a probe thermometer.

In the thread I linked, the probe, which appears to be about 1/2" to about 3/4" into the meat, the metal shaft of the probe will be carrying a lot of heat into where the tip is supposed to be measuring. In the picture, the reading may show the thigh is cooked when the drumstick may still be un-done. This is what I meant by "false". The conclusion drawn (that proper temperature has been reached) is incorrect because  the instrumentation is incorrect.

I see this all the time.

dcarch

 

[tomzo]

JimmyJ -  what would you consider the correct way to wash something like a pork shoulder?   We wash things like watermelons before cutting them for the same reasons as the exterior of melons are frequently contaminated.   We use warm water and dish soap.

Thanks

Tom

 

[chef jimmyj]

JimmyJ -  what would you consider the correct way to wash something like a pork shoulder?   We wash things like watermelons before cutting them for the same reasons as the exterior of melons are frequently contaminated.   We use warm water and dish soap.

Thanks

Tom

Tom, I just give them a Rinse in cold running water then pat dry with Paper Towel...Being Extremely Careful not to splash and contaminate anything surrounding the sink! Oh Yeah, and sanitize the sink and area, for good measure, with hot soapy water before anything else goes in or gets done. This also cleans your hands well before moving on to Rubs and further handling. 

We ain't doing Open Heart Surgery, just trying to reduce risk of getting sick or having to toss $$$ worth of meat just in case something goes wrong during the cook...JJ

 

[chef jimmyj]

May be I am not being clear.

As I said, the much higher thermal conductivity of metal in some cases will need to be considered in the use of a probe thermometer.

In the thread I linked, the probe, which appears to be about 1/2" to about 3/4" into the meat, the metal shaft of the probe will be carrying a lot of heat into where the tip is supposed to be measuring. In the picture, the reading may show the thigh is cooked when the drumstick may still be un-done. This is what I meant by "false". The conclusion drawn (that proper temperature has been reached) is incorrect because  the instrumentation is incorrect.

I see this all the time.

dcarch

Since you guys are HIJACKING THIS THREAD!...And I am a major contributor to answering the OP's question, I will add my observation...

What is the point of building a Thermal Probe that conducts Heat? Are the sensors not Heat Isolated from the rest of the probe and the probe non-conductive? If not then ALL metal Probes would conduct heat to the meat, especially that in contact with the senor AND the sensor itself!  There would not be a single accurate thermometer with a Metal Probe...Not to mention in this senario, Corporate customer demand and therm manufacturer profit savings would have switched to sturdy non-conductive Plastic Probes with just Metal Tips, years ago. I can see, maybe, a cheap probe thermometer conducting heat and being off a few degrees but the metal is very thin and there is just not enough Thermal Mass to make a significant difference. Additionally, I highly doubt general statements about conduction are valid. During my Electronics Controls and Measurement days, I was not always a Chef, all the Industrial and Medical equipment I worked on and with, had Metal Therm Probes and had better be thermally isolated and highly accurate or there would be huge Costs to our clients from manufacturing inferior Product, Malfunctioning Control Systems and worthless Test Equipment.

In the Chicken example the probe would have very little effect on the meats temp, if it did conduct, nor would it read accurately.This is not because, " the instumentation is incorrect ", it is because the probe placement was incorrect. Not only was it not in far enough to generate significant change to the meats temp, it most likely read the Smoker Temp within a few minutes as many inexpensive probes place a Bi-Metal sensor 1/2" to 1" from the tip and the sensor would not be in contact with the meat anyhow.

Please make your Closing Statements and move on starting a New Thread on the subject if you wish to continue, in a civil manner of course...JJ

 

[dcarch]

Sorry I thought I was totally on topic. Apologies to OP.

As per your instructions, I started a new thread:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/...obe-insertion-timing-and-other-considerations

Thanks.

dcarch

 

[bruno994]

That is the other point that I was going to make.   There is a cottage industry predicated on sticking needles into raw meat to inject prior to cooking.   You see it on all the BBQ shows and it appears to be common practice.   It would seem to me that this would be causing all sorts of problems but you just don't hear about it - or at least I have not heard of it.

Tom

It does not cause problems because the food is cooked properly.  Injecting is fine, I do it all the time, but the food needs to be cooked and handled properly to insure no one gets sick. 

As far as the OP's question, there is really no need to probe a butt or brisket until the 4 hour mark.  Smoke at a decent temp, 225 and above and you should be just fine. 

 

[Bearcarver]

I'm a little late to this party, but if the OP or anyone else is interested, I don't inject any of my large hunks of meat, and I don't insert my temp probe until 3 hours in, at which time I sterilize the probe with alcohol wipes before inserting. Since I do it this way, I don't have to worry about the Danger Zone.

If I were to inject or insert my temp probe at the beginning of the smoke, I would have to get the IT of the meat from 40* to 140* in no longer than 4 hours to be sure of being safe.

My 2 cents,

Bear

 

[chuckles]

This is the most comprehensive explanation of this controversial subject that I have read. My wife had a stem cell transplant and her neutrophils (part of the white blood count) are hanging just barely above the very low end of normal. That fact, along with the info presented in you post, has made my decision for me. I'm not sticking that meat until the smoker temp has been up to 160 for a while. In fact, I'm no longer going to inject. Seems like that would be worse than the thermometer probe. Why take the risk. Thanks for sharing this info.

 

[venture]

Interesting point, Chuckles.

Foodborne illness outbreaks frequently occur with infants, seniors, and those with impaired immune systems.

Pooled eggs in institutional settings such as nursing homes would be a prime example. One bad egg can spoil the whole batch if handled incorrectly.

As Chef JJ said, a multitude of things going wrong when just one bad thing may not seem so critical.

Good luck and good smoking.

 

[GaryHibbert]

Hey Venture

I'm not sure, but maybe I'm just going to go out and shoot myself.

Please tell me about this one bad egg LOL thing.  Both of my inlaws are in a nursing home--and I've never heard of this before  Jees, like its not bad enough already, yada yada yada , what's this???????

Gary

 

[GaryHibbert]

Hey Tom

I totally agree, but then, I'm just a dumb truck dri

ver so, in all honesty...............what???????????????

Gary

 

[GaryHibbert]

Hey Tom

I just read the rest of your post.  I gotta tell you you just used a whole bunch of words  that I can't even prounounce, let alone figure out.  Please use smaller words in the future (I;m just a truck driver), just to make it easier for us blue collar types.  I have no doubt that what your're saying is really interesting , just YOU LOST me.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!            LOL Big time

gary

 

[vmastros]

I asked the question at foodsafety.gov, part of the CDC. Here is the response

vince: I participate in a forum on smoking meats bbq style. The question has come up about the safety of inserting a temperature probe into to meat when you if put it on the gril versus waiting for the outside temperature of the meat to warm up.  The concern is that inserting the probe into the meat when it is cold will push bacteria from the surface of the meat into the interior of the meat causing a food safety issue.  What you advise?

Ask Karen: Hi Vince. give me a minute to read your question correctly.

Ask Karen: Well, the bacteria would be killed once the internal temperature of the meat reaches a safe temperature, depending on the type of meat.

Ask Karen: Does that make sense to you or am I missing something about the smoking process you are talking about.

vince: With bbq, we often cook to over 200 degrees internal temperature. At what temp would the bacteria be killed?

Ask Karen: Oh, okay. Bacteria in beef, veal, lamb and pork is killed at 145 (with a 3 minute rest time) bacteria in poultry is killed at 165. 200 would definitely kill the bacteria. You are cooking the meat for a long time right. Low and slow, but the meat gets to a high temp.

Ask Karen: Do you use a water pan (steam) in this process?

vince: Sometimes we do.

vince: Yes, low and slow as well

Ask Karen: Okay, just checking. the steam is a factor in destroying bacteria too. But the final end temp should be at least 145 for red meat, 165 for poultry. If the temp of any meat you BBQ or smoke gets to  i200, that's is definitely safe and any bacteria would be destroyed.

This is from our government, how can it be wrong?

 

[venture]

Totally from the government.

Totally missed the question you were asking.

Gave you answers out of the three-ring binder sitting on her desk.

Sheeesh!   

Good luck and good smoking.

 

[andybigwood]

 
Totally from the government.

Totally missed the question you were asking.

Gave you answers out of the three-ring binder sitting on her desk.

Sheeesh!   

Good luck and good smoking.

UK government is no better

Clear and objective advice from Chef JJ - thanks