My smoker stayed at 175 all night with a boston butt in it...safe to continue ?

Discussion in 'Food Safety' started by lordramz, Mar 12, 2011.

  1. lordramz

    lordramz Newbie

    I thought it would go higher after I went to bed, but apparantly it didn't ... so from midnight to 6 AM the smoker was at 175 ..i marinated the pork, but did not probe it ...i moved it from the smoker to a dutch oven in my oven at 6 AM ..the oven has been set at 220 ...    this is for a party, am i safe here ?
     
  2. smokinal

    smokinal Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator OTBS Member ★ Lifetime Premier ★

    What was the internal temp of the meat when you moved it to the oven?
     
  3. bearcarver

    bearcarver Smoking Guru OTBS Member

    Better ask bbally.

    I know if the smoker temp was at 225˚ for a few hours it would be fine, but I don't know where that line would be drawn.

    175˚ might have been too low.

    I often wondered, but figured, the heck with it, I know 225˚ for 3 hours is safe, why worry about anything lower.

    Thou shalt not fall asleep with temps that low.

    Bear
     
  4. alblancher

    alblancher Master of the Pit Group Lead OTBS Member

    Yea, as the previous Al said,  we need to know the internal temps of the butt.  As long as it didn't take over 4 hours to get to an internal temp of 140 you are fine.  BUT you didn't use a thermo so we are just guessing.  You are Rolling the dice,  175 chamber temp is just to low to even guess what the internal temp on the butt got to.  Sorry.

    You learned two important lessons,  use a thermo to monitor the internal temp of the meat,  you could have gone to bed with the cooking chamber at 170 if you had gotten to the magic 140 internal before leaving it.  

    Good Luck,

    Sorry I can't tell you yes or no on this one.

    Don't forget to go to the new members section and introduce yourself, we will be able to help out a lot more once we have an idea of what equipment your are using and your experience level.

    Al
     
  5. smokinal

    smokinal Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator OTBS Member ★ Lifetime Premier ★

    Well said Al.
     
  6. lordramz

    lordramz Newbie

    didn't check the internal when I moved it :(
     
  7. lordramz

    lordramz Newbie

    at 10 AM it was at 160 FWIW
     
  8. scarbelly

    scarbelly Smoking Guru OTBS Member

    Based on what you just posted, I would toss it out.  Not worth it to me to take a chance  
     
  9. tom37

    tom37 Master of the Pit OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    I gotta go with the general census here. 

    You could still save the party. If theres a sams close, the prepackaged smoked brisket is pretty decent. We have used it to get out of a jam a time or two. 

    Good luck with the party.
     
  10. alblancher

    alblancher Master of the Pit Group Lead OTBS Member

    There again if you don't mind playing dice with the trots you could cut it up, cook it a long time in liquid and fix sandwiches for work.  Might be a good way to get off of work for an afternoon.  I have yet to find a boss that wouldn't let you go home when he sees you hugging the porcelain god in the men's room.  [​IMG]

    But I wouldn't do it to anyone that may  not have a strong constitution and could get real sick from a bad meal.

    Al
     
  11. smokinal

    smokinal Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator OTBS Member ★ Lifetime Premier ★

    160 at 10:00 AM? In the trash. I wouldn't even give it to the dog
     
  12. lordramz

    lordramz Newbie

    i went and picked up some sweet baby rays precooked brisket :(

    I was gonna try the pork myself, but now I guess yall have talked me out of it
     
  13. pineywoods

    pineywoods Smoking Guru Staff Member Administrator Group Lead SMF Premier Member

    Good call that was just too low for too long to take the chance
     
  14. ak1

    ak1 Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    Good call. There were too many unknowns with the butt to take a chance. It's always better to be safe rather than sorry.
     
     
  15. bearcarver

    bearcarver Smoking Guru OTBS Member

    I would have said that, but in this case he didn't have to get the internal temp to 140˚ in 4 hours, because he didn't probe the meat.

    I said to ask bbally about it, because he may know where the lower limit is for the other exception.

    I know if you have a whole muscle type piece of meat that wasn't punctured, in a smoker at 225˚ for 3 hours, it is safe, but I don't know if that would be good for 200˚ for so long, or 175˚ for so long. I would certainly doubt that it would be good at 175˚, but I don't think I ever heard what the absolute minimum is---Maybe 225˚ is the minimum.

    I never cared to look into it before, because I was happy with the 225˚ for 3 hours.

    I think it would be good to know this rule better than I do. I think Bob knows more about it & where to read about it.

    Bear
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2011
  16. chefrob

    chefrob Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    az
    steamships are never done (correctly) in 4 hrs but i'll let bob weigh in on this one.........
     
  17. beer-b-q

    beer-b-q Smoking Guru OTBS Member

    I sure wouldn't chance it...  I agree with everyone on tossing it...
     
  18. ak1

    ak1 Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    As far as the 40-140 guideline goes, I think that it applies to the outside 1/4" on whole muscle meat not the centre.
     
  19. alblancher

    alblancher Master of the Pit Group Lead OTBS Member

    I've looked over the codes I could find and did not see a safe temp for pork roasts that involved higher cooking chamber temps  for short periods of time.  In addition to the internal temp vs time tables as provided by CRF318.10 this statement was included

    (iii) The time to raise product temperature from 60 ° F. to 120 ° F shall not exceed 2 hours unless the product is   cured or fermented

     

    318.17 Concerning Beef

    In addition to the internal temp vs time charts similar to the charts for pork listed in CRF318.10

    roasted shall be cooked by one of thefollowing methods:

    (1) Heating roasts of 10 pounds or more in an oven maintained at 250 °F (121 °C) or higher throughout the process;

    (2) Heating roasts of any size to a minimum internal temperature of 145°F (62.8 °C) in an oven maintained at any temperature if the relative humidity of the oven is maintained either by continuously introducing steam for 50 percent of the cooking time or by use of a sealed oven for over 50 percent of the cooking time, or if the relative humidity of the oven is maintained at 90 percent or above for at least 25 percent of the total cooking time, but in no case less than 1 hour; or

    (3) Heating roasts of any size in an oven maintained at any temperature that will satisfy the internal temperature and time requirements of paragraph

    (a) of this section if the relative humidity of the oven is maintained at 90 percent or above for at least 25 percent of the total cooking time, but in no case less than 1 hour.

    The relative humidity may be achieved by use of steam injection or by sealed ovens capable of producing and maintaining the required relative humidity.

       

    Additional food codes state:
    1. (C) A raw or undercooked whole-muscle, intact beef steak may be served or offered for sale in a ready-to-eat form if:
      1. (1) The food establishment serves a population that is not a highly susceptible population,
      2. (2) The steak is labeled to indicate that it meets the definition of "whole-muscle, intact beef" as specified under ¶ 3-201.11(E), and
      3. (3) The steak is cooked on both the top and bottom to a surface temperature of 63oC (145oF) or above and a cooked color change is achieved on all external surfaces
       

    There are many ways to draw incorrect inferences from these food laws.  Confusing regs intended for beef with regs for pork, steaks for roasts, smoking for high humidity cooking is a way to come to incorrect conclusions.

    I don't know for sure if there is a safe temp for searing roasts, I couldn't find it.

    Al
     
  20. bbally

    bbally Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    First, in the future when you have an oven temperature failure (or smoker or whatever the heck you choose as the thing to make the heat) always always check the temp when it came out.  This allows you to figure the pasteurization process and whether it could apply.

    That said, pork and beef can be treated the same under whole intact muscle.  This says to me that the meat is being treated as a standing rib roast or steamship round.

    I just want everyone to know why...... I analyze the hazards that could apply... since the cooker temp was above the 140 F level the real concern for this meat becomes C. Botulism.  So we are dealing with a problem that needs high humidity, and lack of oxygen.  This is your main concern.   Two things can be looked at to assess the chances... mechnical puncturing of the muscle group, and where did this meat come from and when did it first get exposed to outside contaminates?

    Since lots of people use garlic with pork... that becomes the main vehicle for adding botulism to the formula.

    If it was injected I would probably toss... if it was injected with garlic in the mix I would definately toss.

    However, I would serve this with no problem with a few conditions:

    It was not injected or mechanically tenderized.

    It was taken to a final temperature exceeding 162 F for 15 seconds.  (because it is pork I like a more safety oriented temp finish... on beef I would do a different temp, that would be way lower then 140 F  more like 132 F or so)

    The pork in question was taken by you, or in front of you, out of the vacuum packaging so you know you were the first to expose it to outside contaminates.

    That is my 2 cents on the deal.... I know many called for it to be tossed... they are not wrong... but with the amount of experience I and others have in cooking large intact muscle groups at low temps I would go with it because of your final finish temperture and a lack of mechanical puncturing.  The length of time and final temp will take care of the poison if somehow it got E-coli or another nasty surface problem... the big concern really is Botulism...... hence my insistance that is not have been injected. 

    If you don't feel you know the meat and how it was handled, toss it,..... if you have a great idea of the meat was right out of the cyro I would use it.

    In the end you have to be confident that the food you serve is safe... I could get there with the thinking above..... the question for you is "can you?"
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2011

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