Bacon curing - validating the 10% uptake assumption

[pops6927]

I give mine a shake before measuring it out.

 

[diggingdogfarm]

If a manufacturer claims that cure #1 is 6.25% nitrite in a package mixed with salt, then how can we be sure that every gram we take out is exactly 93.75% salt and 6.25% nitrite. There must be an assumption level built on statistical evidence which we assume is correct, otherwise we would have no confidence in using cure.

If it's real Cure #1 made by the process first invented and patented by Karl Max Seifert and subsequently improved by Griffith Laboratories, it's a homogeneous product that can't separate.

"Seifert Patent No. 1,950,459, small quantities of other salts dissolved with larger quantities of sodium chloride, and so treated, form a salt product which is homogeneous in composition."

http://www.google.com/patents/US1950459

 

[wade]

If it's real Cure #1 made by the process first invented and patented by Karl Max Seifert and subsequently improved by Griffith Laboratories, it's a homogeneous product that can't separate.
 

Unfortunately you cannot know with absolute certainty as any simple mixture of salts, no matter how well mixed or how fine it is powdered, is likely to have slight mixture variations. If made by a reputable cure manufacturer they will have several samples analysed from each batch to ensure that the batch is as homogeneous as possible. Mostly we just take their assurances that their product is what it claims to be - although if you wanted to check, their batch test results should be available if you ask to see them. I do ask for (and get) the analysis certificates from the suppliers I use in the UK. Wherever you have a mix of salts like this you are always going to get statistical variation between samples but so long as the variation is within acceptable limits then there is not a problem.

There are a lot of manufacturers of curing salts and many/most of these are bulk chemical manufacturers that simply blend the salt and nitrite without using the process described above by DDF. Again this is not a problem providing the mix was properly blended during manufacture and the batch testing was positive. Because of the accuracy (or not) of us trying to weigh out the cure to the nearest 1/10th of a gram and the accuracy to which the meat is weighed, combined with just general biological variation of uptake during the curing process, the minute variations that you may get in the original cure mixture is not likely to have a significant effect.

As Martin implies - buy your cure from a reputable source. It also does not hurt to shake it before you measure it out. Also use the most accurate scales that you have when weighing the cure.

If you are making an immersion or pumping brine it is also important to weigh the water too, as relying on the markings on the side of a measuring jug or barrel will considerably increase the inaccuracy of the resulting brine concentration.

 

[daveomak]

Have followed this thread with a great deal of interest subsequent to having quite possibly the best bacon we ever raised rendered inedible by a local curing shop (USDA approved btw)



Now this is where it gets really contentious,
Pops brine according to the DigginDogFarm calculator contains approx, 20 PPM sodium nitrite, however the high level of sugar may mitigate the low PPM (more research needed).


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I think you need to recalculate Pop's brine Ppm nitrite concentration.... Perhaps long hand....

Pops brine is ~180 280 Ppm, depending on what size the TBS. is....

There I go again.... one more error today.....

 

[wade]

 

Now this is where it gets really contentious,
Pops brine according to the DigginDogFarm calculator contains approx, 20 PPM sodium nitrite, however the high level of sugar may mitigate the low PPM (more research needed).


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I think you need to recalculate Pop's brine Ppm nitrite concentration.... Perhaps long hand....

Pops brine is ~180 Ppm, depending on what size the TBS. is....

Pops brine itself starts off being 281 mg/litre and so depending on your calculation for determining Ppm then the Ppm will be somewhere in that region.

The resulting calculated Ppm Nitrite in the meat though will differ depending on which calculation you decide to use.

If you decide to assume that equilibrium brining is taking place then the resulting Nitrite would be somewhat less (but approaching) the 280 Ppm figure.

However if instead you choose to apply the 10% uptake calculation (from the Prague Powder thread), then the calculated Ppm would be approaching the 28 Ppm figure.

 
Wade,

A method meet the percent addition you prefer for a particular product would be to periodically remove and weigh the product as it is soaking in a properly formulated brine solution. For example, when a 10 lb. green weight bacon weighs 11 pounds remove it from the curing solution.

If your bacon brine has been accurately calculated and formulated for a certain safe PPM of sodium nitrite you can be confident your bacon won't harm anyone. The USDA requires 120 PPM for immersion cured bacon, personally I would stick with the government level, better to err in the direction of safety.

Hams at 20% addition the cure would obviously require less sodium nitrite as a percentage of the curing brine.

The periodic weighing of the meat to determine brine take up was mentioned by DDF in the Prague Powder thread and weight increase is alluded to as being the way of calculating % take up in the USDA Processing Inspectors' Calculations Handbook. This is fine so long as you accept that the only Nitrite take up will be as a result of the weight increase - and that there is no equilibrium take up taking place as well.

From the weighing results that I posted earlier in this thread you will see that even after 7 days some of the meat had exceeded the 10% take up however even after the 14 days some had not yet reached the 10%. Some of the equilibrium brining methods described on here assume that full equilibrium is reached after 14 days in the brine. If this were so then the meat that had been in the 10x concentrated brine for 14 days (and had not yet reached 10% increase) would have not only reached full equilibrium with the strong brine but will also have taken up 9% of its weight in the strong brine solution too.

 

[atomicsmoke]

Ghenges,
Have you read the Prague Powder thread Wade is referencing above? If not ...please do so...otherwise this thread won't make much sense.

 

[atomicsmoke]

Respectfully Dave,

"depending on what size the TBS. is...."  ???? 

Perhaps I missed the humor,
180 PPM  will take one giant sized tablespoon, Dave.


Here are the calculations another way: (100 pounds green meat, 45400 grams)
View media item 377017

I am not sure how you got your numbers. Pops brine says 1tbs of brine /gallon of water. How do you plan to cure 100lbs of meat in 1 gallon of brine?

 

[atomicsmoke]

I did mean 1tbs of cure not brine.

Wade's results will answer a lot of questions.

 

[wade]

 
 
I thought that also until he replied to my post.

I think you need to read the threads in full. This is EXACTLY what I am skeptical about. There appear to be two "accepted" methods of calculating immersion brine uptake on here that appear to use the same physical method - but which use brine with Nitrite concentrations an order of magnitude apart. There are staunch supporters of both methods on here that claim that one or the other method produces an end result that is safe and within the guidelines. I cannot see how both can do this, however I do not have sufficient evidence to know whether one or the other is correct.

Personally I have a great deal of difficulty accepting that a 10% increase in weight is the equivalent of a 10% uptake in Nitrite however the "USDA Processing Inspectors' Calculations Handbook" (which is considered as gospel by some) actually says that it is. Although I am skeptical of this methodology I am keeping an open mind and not trying to pre-judge any results until the lab tests are back. Because of this I am simply trying to phrase my words in the posts in such a way that I am not offending the believers of either method. This is actually very hard to do and may be why you think I am "on my own planet". 

 

[daveomak]

delete.......

I caught my mistake..... so all three of us are tied.....

 

[daveomak]

Wade..... Sh#t.... I did it again..... I wrote ~180 Ppm in place of ~280.... in post 105.... Thanks for catching that..... I'm gonna have to award prizes to the person that catches the "most errors" Dave puts out .... shall that contest be a weekly or daily contest....

You and Martin are tied for now....

 

[atomicsmoke]

I am not sure what your purpose is? To stop Wade from finishing his experiment?

 

[wade]

Hi Ghenges. I see that you have been registered on the forum now for 12 months and in that time have only made one other post (a year ago) before suddenly becoming so enthusiastically vocal in this specific thread. I do find that somewhat strange. Do you usually post under another name on this forum and are using this name as a pseudonym?

 

[wade]

You are entitled to your own opinion however many others on here do not share your viewpoint.

 

[atomicsmoke]

Ghenges,
It was suggested time and time again to read and understand what started this experiment. Wade and I were not defending the status quo but we were requesting clarifications on universally accepted methods. We did not get the clarifications and Wade decided to test the methods on his own dime. He does not have a dog on this fight. Neither do I.
You seem to know a lot about the Internet community, forums and message boards. I am sure you know that one does not bring credibility to the table with name calling, transparent innuendos and vicious posts.

 

[atomicsmoke]

Virtually silent?

 

[chef jimmyj]

OK GUYS...This thread will be locked if this Jousting gets out of hand. Posts will be edited to remove remarks that are deemed rude. The rules here are as follows...

There are some Hot subjects that come up in Safety from time to time while Friendly debate is acceptable...Rude Arguing is not any kind of Fun and Threads may be Locked from time to time to allow a cooling off period...

Please be nice to one another... Disparaging Comments about another members Post, Education, Abilities or Intent...Is just not right and will have to be deleted with a Warning sent...Further infractions will be grounds for Suspension and/or Banning from the SMF...We all lose in this situation...

This is all encompassing. There is no favoritism. I myself have let my passion for a subject cause me to argue in a thread. This added nothing in terms of useful information and I caused undue upset to a friend, Mr. T, and other untold numbers of member that could of read the thread and leave thinking " This site is like all the rest..." We are not!!! Again I apologize to all for my handling of the subject matter...JJ
 

 

[centex99]

Wade,

Thanks for doing this study... very interesting to say the least.  Any updates on the results?

 

[wade]

Hi Centex99

Thanks for asking. I have been refraining from posting more here until the results come back as there appeared to be an attempt to hijack this thread and throw it off track.

I contacted the labs on Friday (6th March) and they tell me that I should have the results on Monday or Tuesday this week (9th/10th). It may then take me a couple more days to post them. The labs I am using are a company called ALS Global. They are a large reputable testing organisation who do the lab testing for most of the major supermarkets here in the UK. Being large they unfortunately have their rigid internal processes, and frustratingly when they quote 10 working days to do these tests - they take 10 working days !!! LOL They did offer to quote me to expedite them though...

Wade

 

[supplysergeant]

I, for one, am eagerly awaiting the results. Wade, thank you for undertaking this experiment. I have the utmost respect for the old ways and established wisdom, but properly collected empirical data is hard to argue with. Since my entire, extended family eats my cured products, I want to use any tool available to ensure they are safe!