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UMAi Pancetta - Page 4

post #61 of 71

I have read and learned so much about curing and dry curing and fascinated by this. But the one thing I cant seem to wrap my head around with this style of curing (braseola, pancetta, etc.) and how it is ok to eat it raw. Yes, it is cured of course but that is for preventing botulism, but what about the other bugs? We don't eat bacon raw, and yet this is cured in the same manner but not cooked? Nearly everything else needs to be cooked to internal temperature before consumption for food safety reasons. This is what is stopping be from dry curing- not KNOWING.

post #62 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Browneyesvictim View Post

I have read and learned so much about curing and dry curing and fascinated by this. But the one thing I cant seem to wrap my head around with this style of curing (braseola, pancetta, etc.) and how it is ok to eat it raw. Yes, it is cured of course but that is for preventing botulism, but what about the other bugs? We don't eat bacon raw, and yet this is cured in the same manner but not cooked? Nearly everything else needs to be cooked to internal temperature before consumption for food safety reasons. This is what is stopping be from dry curing- not KNOWING.

Do you eat salami? Ground meat carries more risk than whole muscle.
post #63 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Browneyesvictim View Post

I have read and learned so much about curing and dry curing and fascinated by this. But the one thing I cant seem to wrap my head around with this style of curing (braseola, pancetta, etc.) and how it is ok to eat it raw. Yes, it is cured of course but that is for preventing botulism, but what about the other bugs? We don't eat bacon raw, and yet this is cured in the same manner but not cooked? Nearly everything else needs to be cooked to internal temperature before consumption for food safety reasons. This is what is stopping be from dry curing- not KNOWING.
Botulism is nasty and kills but it takes much more print space than it should.

To alleviate your concerns: the meats you mentioned are whole muscle. Botulism mostly germinates in ground meats, stews, dishes, where the ingredients are no longer intact.

Most members here cure with curing salts. Botulism does not germinate in nitrite/nitrate cured meats. Salt and drying prevents other bugs.

Bacon is cured but not dried. Pancetta is unsmoked bacon that has been dried.

Have you tried store bought cured/dried meats? Sample them first - not everyone likes them.

If you do start a project.
post #64 of 71
There is cure in the meat that doesn't allow bad stuff to get in. There are cultures used that keep good mold alive that won't allow bad molds to grow.
They been doing it for hundreds of years. You get to know by look and smell that your stuff is ok.
post #65 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyOwnIdaho View Post


Do you eat salami? Ground meat carries more risk than whole muscle.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicsmoke View Post


Botulism is nasty and kills but it takes much more print space than it should.

To alleviate your concerns: the meats you mentioned are whole muscle. Botulism mostly germinates in ground meats, stews, dishes, where the ingredients are no longer intact.

Most members here cure with curing salts. Botulism does not germinate in nitrite/nitrate cured meats. Salt and drying prevents other bugs.


Have you tried store bought cured/dried meats? Sample them first - not everyone likes them.
Bacon is cured but not dried. Pancetta is unsmoked bacon that has been dried.

If you do start a project.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rings R Us View Post

There is cure in the meat that doesn't allow bad stuff to get in. There are cultures used that keep good mold alive that won't allow bad molds to grow.
They been doing it for hundreds of years. You get to know by look and smell that your stuff is ok.


Thanks guys... I appreciate your replies. Yes. I have had (and like) most all of the natural old world style charcuterie dry aged meats weather they are ground or not. I fully understand the nitrates/nitrites, and know I the differences and in aging styles etc. Ive done a bit of curing and some aging now, and I do have several dry aging projects lined up, such as a dry cured peperoni with UMAI but this one mental block is stopping me is about the "eating it raw" part.

 

Atomicsmoke- you touched on it but this still isn't answering my question...
"Bacon is cured but not dried. Pancetta is unsmoked bacon that has been dried."

 

Please allow me rephrase...How and why is it ok that the only difference in the endorsement of eating raw cured meat is that it is dried?

So if you dried cured bacon could you eat it raw like you do pancetta? -not that I want to, but I am stuck on the fundamental difference. None of the books I've read- Kutas, Marianski , and even this site haven't been able to satisfy this question for me.

 

Thank you for indulging my question.

Erik

post #66 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Browneyesvictim View Post
 

I have read and learned so much about curing and dry curing and fascinated by this. But the one thing I cant seem to wrap my head around with this style of curing (braseola, pancetta, etc.) and how it is ok to eat it raw. Yes, it is cured of course but that is for preventing botulism, but what about the other bugs? We don't eat bacon raw, and yet this is cured in the same manner but not cooked? Nearly everything else needs to be cooked to internal temperature before consumption for food safety reasons. This is what is stopping be from dry curing- not KNOWING.

One more point to this is that unlike bacon, we are using Cure #2 which has nitrates and nitrites. For bacon we only use Cure #1, then cold or hot smoke and then cook it to temp.

 

Somewhere here @DaveOmak there are some good articles that go into the process differences between curing and dry curing and why it is safe to eat dry cured meats.

 

As for the ground meat issue, pepperoni, salami, sopresstta, etc. can all be dry cured. I would not use store bought ground to make any ground meat dry cured products.

post #67 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtsailor2003 View Post
 

One more point to this is that unlike bacon, we are using Cure #2 which has nitrates and nitrites. For bacon we only use Cure #1, then cold or hot smoke and then cook it to temp.

 

Somewhere here @DaveOmak there are some good articles that go into the process differences between curing and dry curing and why it is safe to eat dry cured meats.

 

As for the ground meat issue, pepperoni, salami, sopresstta, etc. can all be dry cured. I would not use store bought ground to make any ground meat dry cured products.

 

Thanks Case. This was good to point out there is a difference between cure #1 and Cure #2. But as I understand it, that still has to do with the time delay of Nitrates into Nitrites over the longer aging process. That still has to do solely with preventing Botulism in the long run. There is a ton of other the harmful bacterium besides clostridium botulinum that are present or potentially present that can make you sick through the handling, and aging process, and yes, especially ground meats vs. whole muscle. Is this not the fundamental principle of why we always cook to a minimum IT? I have never read anything that says using cure #2 is the reason you can eat meat raw.

 

I understand the dry aging process removes the moisture content wherein bacteria cannot thrive. I believe this is the key, but at what point is it considered safe vs. what is not safe to eat raw?

post #68 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Browneyesvictim View Post
 

, but at what point is it considered safe vs. what is not safe to eat raw?

The only sure fire way to know when it is safe to eat dry cured meat is to monitor the PH level and the water content levels. To do this properly you have to have special equipment or send your product into a food lab to have it tested.

 

For me I'm not to worried about the pancetta as all of what I have will be cooked into other dishes.

post #69 of 71
if you dried cured bacon could you eat it raw like you do pancetta?
----
Pretty much...pancetta is often made with cure#2 but i doubt the nitrate has measurable contribution in an umai bag (fridge temps).
post #70 of 71
Do you have concerns when it comes to cold smoked salmon?
post #71 of 71


Theoretically, yes. Knowing what I know now about aniskasis, Henneguya zschokkei and other ectoparasites... I don't eat raw fish anymore. And even then when I do, It has gone through a freeze cycle, and is kept in the safe temp zones etc. But this has  to do with parasites than bacteria.

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