SmokingMeatForums.com › Forums › Smoking Meat (and other things) › Pork › let the games begin .... i have a subjective question
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

let the games begin .... i have a subjective question - Page 2

post #21 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef JimmyJ View Post
 
 
I don't know enough about sous vide safety to comment beyond if a risk exists at low temp smoking of ground, injected and BRT meat. The risk is likely there with sous vide. I know sausage is safe to sous vide because of its size. But I would not try to sous vide a meatloaf. Additionally , USDA and SMF Guidelines are based on " risk" factors not absolutes. What may only give me or you some gas may put grandma in the hospital...JJ

 

I'm curious as to what you would not do a meatloaf sous vide. I've done many over the past few years with excellent results and no safety issues whatsoever. As you're supposedly the forums food safety expert Is your statement, which sounds like an absolute, based on factual scientific evidence, or is it just personal opinion?

post #22 of 37

Baldwin has some very good info about sous-vide.....

 

 

http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html

 

About the meat loaf....   I don't know BUT.....   I'm guessing, since ground meats has distributed all the pathogens to the inside of the meat, during the heating process they will be multiplying...   maybe more than can be considered safe...   

 

Whole muscle meats are considered "sterile" on the inside...   anywho....  see if you can find a reputable recipe for sous-vide ground meats...

post #23 of 37

Safety issues of sous vide ground meats are addressed in the following. http://www.seriouseats.com/2015/08/the-food-lab-complete-guide-to-sous-vide-burger.html

 

T

post #24 of 37

IMO, the Food Lab falls short of the guidelines set out by the FSIS...  The chart below is only for a 5 log reduction, which may be borderline for some ground meats...  and some folks with compromised immune systems...

 

I DO like their method...   I may try it but I definitely would sous-vide for a much longer time period..

 

 

FSIS Guidance on Safe Cooking of Non-Intact Meat Chops, Roasts, and Steaks

April 2009 Temp °F

Temp °C

Time for 5.0 log Reduction

Unit Time

130

54.4

86

min.

131

55.0

69

min.

132

55.6

55

min.

133

56.1

44

min.

134

56.7

35

min.

135

57.2

28

min.

136

57.8

22

min.

137

58.4

18

min.

138

58.9

14

min.

139

59.5

11

min.

140

60.0

9

min.

141

60.6

7

min.

142

61.1

6

min.

143

61.7

5

min.

144

62.2

4

min.

145

62.8

3

min.

146

63.3

130

sec.

147

63.9

103

sec.

148

64.4

82

sec.

149

65.0

65

sec.

150

65.6

52

sec.

151

66.1

41

sec.

152

66.7

33

sec.

153

67.2

26

sec.

154

67.8

21

sec.

155

68.3

17

sec.

156

68.9

14

sec.

157

69.4

11

sec.

158

70.0

0

sec.

159

70.6

0

sec.

160

71.1

0

sec.

post #25 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveOmak View Post
 

   I may try it but I definitely would sous-vide for a much longer time period..

 

As the chart shows, there is a cooking range in which one can apply common sense.

 

Sous-Vide Hamburger Temperature and Timing Chart

[TOP]
Doneness Temperature Timing Range
Very Rare to Rare 115°F (46°C) to 123°F (51°C) 40 minutes to 2 1/2 hours
Medium-Rare 124°F (51°C) to 129°F (54°C) 40 minutes to 2 1/2 hours
Medium 130°F (54°C) to 137°F (58°C) 40 minutes to 4 hours (2 1/2 hours max if under 130°F/54°C)
Medium-Well 138°F (59°C) to 144°F (62°C) 40 minutes to 4 hours
Well Done 145°F (63°C) to 155°F (68°C) 40 minutes to 3 1/2 hours
 

 

The FSIS chart obviously is for time to pasteurize the meat. As you and I both know, we don’t always pasteurize our meat before we eat it.

 

 Food Lab recommends cooking even longer than the FSIS to pasteurize.

 

 With sous-vide methods, you have a bit more leeway as beef can be safely pasteurized at temperatures as low as 130°F if held for long enough. At 130°F, it takes 2 hours to safely pasteurize beef, while at 140°F, it takes only 12 minutes. Remember—these timeframes begin once the center of the burger reaches pasteurization temperature, so it's a good idea to add an extra half hour to those times for any burger you plan on pasteurizing.

 

Pasteurization cannot safely take place lower than 130°F, so for this reason, I strongly recommend freshly grinding beef for sous-vide burgers you plan on serving rare to medium-rare.


Edited by Mr T 59874 - 4/20/17 at 9:46am
post #26 of 37

The chart you are referring to, in a FSIS chart that is a 7 D reduction for E. coli....   The chart I displayed is for a 5 D reduction....  

 

So, as is obvious, the times / temps are different... 

 

 

edit....   D represents decimal...   5D = .00001 reduction which means, if there are 1,000,000 (1 million) bacteria, a 5D reduction would be 10 bacteria after treatment...  or something like that..

The FSIS, as near as I can tell, promote a 7D reduction so folks with compromised immune systems and children, will be safe if they eat the product...

post #27 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveOmak View Post
 

The chart you are referring to, in a FSIS chart that is a 7 D reduction for E. coli....   The chart I displayed is for a 5 D reduction....  

 

Dave, that chart was pasted by mistake, my bad. LOL I edited the post to include the chart from Food Lab.

 

Like said above which would include those with compromised immune systems, common sense should be applied.

 

T

post #28 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by dls1 View Post

I'm curious as to what you would not do a meatloaf sous vide. I've done many over the past few years with excellent results and no safety issues whatsoever. As you're supposedly the forums food safety expert Is your statement, which sounds like an absolute, based on factual scientific evidence, or is it just personal opinion?

Scientific evidence or opinion? Both...If any meat is going to have a high bacterial load it is ground beef, fact. If meat is cooked at temps below 200 degrees, depending on the weight and dimensions, the center of the meat can be in the prime region of the danger zone, 80-100, in excess of 4 hours. In these conditions some bacteria can double or triple their numbers in under 1 hour,fact. I rarely make meat loaves less than 4 pounds of meat plus add-ons. Thats a lot to handle, bag and wait to cook SV when an hour at 400 and we eat,fact and opinion. The point of sous vide is tenderizing meat and even cooking to a desired lT. Since neither of these greatly enhance a meatloaf and you don't get that great crunchy crust, spending the time to SV a meatloaf is pointless for me,opinion. As far as my words being absolute...l just give the facts mixed with opinion based on over 20 years cooking professionally responsible for thousands of people safety and never made anyone sick. Evaluate my credibility then choose to follow or ignore what l put out.

I did a lot of dumb stuff in my youth until l was educated on how risky it was. Drank heavily and drove, didn't wear a seatbelt until my mid twenties, defrosted meat on the counter overnight and all day and thought nothing of eating food that sat out overnight. I know better now and just share what l have learned over the years...JJ
post #29 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef JimmyJ View Post


Scientific evidence or opinion? Both...If any meat is going to have a high bacterial load it is ground beef, fact. If meat is cooked at temps below 200 degrees, depending on the weight and dimensions, the center of the meat can be in the prime region of the danger zone, 80-100, in excess of 4 hours. In these conditions some bacteria can double or triple their numbers in under 1 hour,fact. I rarely make meat loaves less than 4 pounds of meat plus add-ons. Thats a lot to handle, bag and wait to cook SV when an hour at 400 and we eat,fact and opinion. The point of sous vide is tenderizing meat and even cooking to a desired lT. Since neither of these greatly enhance a meatloaf and you don't get that great crunchy crust, spending the time to SV a meatloaf is pointless for me,opinion. As far as my words being absolute...l just give the facts mixed with opinion based on over 20 years cooking professionally responsible for thousands of people safety and never made anyone sick. Evaluate my credibility then choose to follow or ignore what l put out.

I did a lot of dumb stuff in my youth until l was educated on how risky it was. Drank heavily and drove, didn't wear a seatbelt until my mid twenties, defrosted meat on the counter overnight and all day and thought nothing of eating food that sat out overnight. I know better now and just share what l have learned over the years...JJ

:77: thumb1.gif

post #30 of 37
Getting back to the original post made. I have done both bone in and not. They both come out tasting good and if there was a difference in taste. Then it was from other means during the rub and smoking process. The bone in my opinion does nothing for taste. But it looks good when you pull it from the meat and its clean. Showing the people that are going to be eating.
post #31 of 37
With the thought of getting the meat as quick as possible to 140. What about a slow cooker? It takes a long time when set on low. Bacteria has a long time to gather and grow. I think I go with the pasteurization process stated before by Mr T. But you still have to maintain cleanliness when preparing any cut of meat. Just my thoughts.
post #32 of 37

I'm a bone-in fan.  Going boneless just doesn't feel right to me.  It's like a second-rate piece of meat, in my head.

post #33 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovethemeats View Post

With the thought of getting the meat as quick as possible to 140. What about a slow cooker? It takes a long time when set on low. Bacteria has a long time to gather and grow. I think I go with the pasteurization process stated before by Mr T. But you still have to maintain cleanliness when preparing any cut of meat. Just my thoughts.

 

LTM, afternoon...   "USUALLY" Slow cookers recipes state, "Start on high for "X minutes or hours" then turn to low or medium" depends on the slow cooker.  If not, they should...  the initial firing of a cooking process should make an attempt to kill surface bacteria.....   Another method is to "sear the meat on all sides" the put in the slow cooker on high for X" etc....  searing kills surface bacteria....  AND gives meats that great "BROWN MEAT" flavor that Ann Burrell loves so dearly...

post #34 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovethemeats View Post

With the thought of getting the meat as quick as possible to 140. What about a slow cooker? It takes a long time when set on low. Bacteria has a long time to gather and grow. I think I go with the pasteurization process stated before by Mr T. But you still have to maintain cleanliness when preparing any cut of meat. Just my thoughts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovethemeats View Post

With the thought of getting the meat as quick as possible to 140. What about a slow cooker? It takes a long time when set on low. Bacteria has a long time to gather and grow. I think I go with the pasteurization process stated before by Mr T. But you still have to maintain cleanliness when preparing any cut of meat. Just my thoughts.

The low setting on a slow cooker is usually about 190, a recommended safe cooking temp. So no issue using it...JJ
post #35 of 37
I think the only thing you miss out on with boneless is the satisfaction of pulling the bone clean with two fingers and doing the bone dance around the kitchen. Or maybe that's just me. Cook time, temp, and smoke will have the biggest impact. I've done bone in, bone out, whole shoulder, picnic, and butt. They taste like pulled pork to me.

Lance
post #36 of 37
Thanks people for the info.
Yes i to am a bone person.
Just the way it has to be for me also.
post #37 of 37
Thread Starter 

Update, Pork butts came out ok with bone out . the issue I had was the cook time seemed longer to be honest , I think i prefer bone in 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Pork
SmokingMeatForums.com › Forums › Smoking Meat (and other things) › Pork › let the games begin .... i have a subjective question