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Help please - Page 2

post #21 of 36

No need to amend....  Your post was spot on....   Excellent points  in fact....

post #22 of 36
Thread Starter 
If the cure #2 added would indeed work and the added level of nitrite is not harmfull with the only problem being the added salt couldn't I just add more meat to the mix?? That pure nitrate sounds like the best idea but might take a while to get to me as I live in Canada and of course the Canadian site doesn't carry any. Also Dave that scale I have is for grams. Sorry to keep this going
post #23 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtorts View Post

If the cure #2 added would indeed work and the added level of nitrite is not harmfull with the only problem being the added salt couldn't I just add more meat to the mix?? That pure nitrate sounds like the best idea but might take a while to get to me as I live in Canada and of course the Canadian site doesn't carry any. Also Dave that scale I have is for grams. Sorry to keep this going

 

 

You do NOT want to add more nitrite....   Nitrite is a poison that can kill you if added in high quantities...    All you want to kill is the botulism and other pathogens that it helps control...   Nitrite combines with something in your blood and prevents your blood from carrying oxygen to your organs, muscles, brain etc....

 

 

You could make smoked Summer Sausage and cook it to 155 ish F...  You could freeze it in 5-10# packs until stuff got there......

post #24 of 36
Thread Starter 
I get that but would 4oz of cure 2 cantain high enough quantities to be that harmful. I guess I'm just getting confused now some say yes some say no. I will just smoke it to be safe
post #25 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtorts View Post

I get that but would 4oz of cure 2 cantain high enough quantities to be that harmful. I guess I'm just getting confused now some say yes some say no. I will just smoke it to be safe

 

In my opinion, anyone that deliberately tells you it is "Safe or OK" to use twice the amount of cure, should be taken off of your list of folks to listen to...

post #26 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtorts View Post

I get that but would 4oz of cure 2 cantain high enough quantities to be that harmful. I guess I'm just getting confused now some say yes some say no. I will just smoke it to be safe

I agree with Dave and there has been a few of us made some salami using cure #1 take a look

This is my post 

Richie

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/233631/salami-in-the-mes40

post #27 of 36
Not trying to start an argument....and I am the last person here to push for use or nitrites...BUT: twice the dose would bring the nitrite level to aprox 300ppm. If none of the nitrite dissipates (impossible) and all nitrate converts to nitrite (improbable) the total nitrite level will be aprox 400ppm. In reality residual nitrite will be much less (OP mentions months of drying). I wish we could see some ppm level/time charts.

Immersion bacon with full strength brine has as much as 600ppm and is considered safe (see Wade's experiment).

Why is one OK and one not? Especially considering the fact bacon can be consumed immediately (high residual nitrite level) and is fried (increasing chances of nitrosamine formation) while this salami will not be cooked and will not be consumed for months.

One more detail that is confusing a little: nitrate is used for long term curing since the nitrite is consumed before the drying is completed. Yet we are concerned the salami will still have too much nitrite after two months.
post #28 of 36
One more thing: the limits 120, 156ppm 600 something (for hams) were established to limit exposure to potential carcinogenic byproducts (nitrosamine) not because of lethal doses can be reached.
post #29 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicsmoke View Post

Not trying to start an argument....and I am the last person here to push for use or nitrites...BUT: twice the dose would bring the nitrite level to aprox 300ppm. If none of the nitrite dissipates (impossible) and all nitrate converts to nitrite (improbable) the total nitrite level will be aprox 400ppm. In reality residual nitrite will be much less (OP mentions months of drying). I wish we could see some ppm level/time charts.

Immersion bacon with full strength brine has as much as 600ppm and is considered safe (see Wade's experiment).

 

 

Months of drying requires nitrate that will convert to nitrite by bacterial action...    that's why cure #2 needs to be used...    Nitrite does dissipate over time...  

That in itself, is not a reason to use twice the USDA recommended amount of nitrite...

 

The maximum allowable amount of nitrites ingoing for bacon is 120 Ppm in a brine, pumped and/or massaged recipe...  Wade's experiment had a flaw or two in it...   He used a % pump recipe and converted it to an equilibrium brine method...

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicsmoke View Post

One more thing: the limits 120, 156ppm 600 something (for hams) were established to limit exposure to potential carcinogenic byproducts (nitrosamine) not because of lethal doses can be reached.

 625 Ppm max. allowable nitrite for dry curing hams is an animal of a different color....  

 

Regardless of the reason, the USDA set ingoing maximums allowable for nitrites....  although methods may be different, the methods were evaluated and acceptable levels of nitrite, ingoing, were adjusted for each method..

 

I know I'm not smart enough to question the USDA's reasoning or their values set for methods....  And from what I read on this forum there are few that can challenge those USDA recommendations with any authority...

 

Those folks that think adding 600 Ppm nitrite to their bacon or what ever hunk of meat is OK....  please keep those thoughts to yourself...   OR take responsibility for your actions.... 

 

This forum follows the USDA guidelines...  please remember that....  

post #30 of 36
"He used a % pump recipe and converted it to an equilibrium brine method"
---
You are wrong here Dave. Please read his results again.
post #31 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicsmoke View Post

"He used a % pump recipe and converted it to an equilibrium brine method"
---
You are wrong here Dave. Please read his results again.

 

There are several immersion curing methods that are regularly quoted on here that use similar methodology - but which use very different initial brine strengths. One of these methods uses a very high initial brine strength (in the range usually associated with injection/pump brining) and relies on a % pickup factor when calculating the final cure concentration in the bacon..

 

 

Wade confused the "% pickup factor"  what the meat naturally absorbs vs. the meaning "% pumped" what you inject into the meat.....   Thus he had a starting concentration of  "Brine #1 has a starting Nitrite concentration of 9.38 g in 5..47 Kg of final brine = 1,716 mg per Kg = 1,716 Ppm"..  and the resulting bacon concentration of ~ 600 Ppm nitrite...  

 

When he used Pops brine/cure method... everything was fine.. the bacon fell within acceptable limits.....

 

Anyhow, we were talking about adding nitrite directly to meat and not a brine...

 

 

And in Wade's conclusion....

  • Based upon these test results, although the resulting bacon is unlikely to be harmful if eaten in moderation, the forum should consider carefully whether it is should continue endorsing the Brine #1 method as the resulting levels of cure were several times higher than the maximum USDA recommendations. At a minimum this should probably not be a method that is recommended to members who are new to curing.

unlikely to be harmful ... now that statement leave a lot to be desired... and the forum does not endorse using the % pump method for equilibrium curing...  only folks that do not understand curing and the mathematics supporting it, would use that method...

 

Anyway, back to a point I made earlier.....   This forum stands by the USDA's recommended guidelines...   

post #32 of 36

Hi Dave and Atomic - and Happy New Year to you both

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicsmoke View Post

Immersion bacon with full strength brine has as much as 600ppm and is considered safe (see Wade's experiment).
 
 
Atomic - As you know this experiment was to test what actually happened when a method that was being recommended by another member on here was followed to the letter. I do not think that it was safe then and I do not think that it safe now. It was really to show that the members interpretation of the wording in the handbook supporting their method was flawed. The incorrect nature of their interpretation has subsequently been confirmed by the USDA.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveOmak View Post

 

Wade's experiment had a flaw or two in it...   He used a % pump recipe and converted it to an equilibrium brine method...

 

 
Dave - this was not a flaw. It was actually one of the reasons for doing the testing in the first place. It was following the method that was being recommended by another member that was making this %pump/equilibrium/immersion assumption based upon wording in the Handbook. One of the purposes of this test was to show that the members method was not valid - and I think it did just that.
Pops brine on the other hand was also being questioned elsewhere on the forum at the time for having levels of Nitrite that looked too low, and questions were being raised about how two methods that were using exactly the same procedures but with such different Nitrite levels could BOTH be safe. I am sorry if you missed that point as it was one of the main purposes of the test.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveOmak View Post

 

And in Wade's conclusion....

  • Based upon these test results, although the resulting bacon is unlikely to be harmful if eaten in moderation, the forum should consider carefully whether it is should continue endorsing the Brine #1 method as the resulting levels of cure were several times higher than the maximum USDA recommendations. At a minimum this should probably not be a method that is recommended to members who are new to curing.

unlikely to be harmful ... now that statement leave a lot to be desired... and the forum does not endorse using the % pump method for equilibrium curing...  only folks that do not understand curing and the mathematics supporting it, would use that method...

 

Anyway, back to a point I made earlier.....   This forum stands by the USDA's recommended guidelines...   

 

If you read the paragraph as a whole rather than just the words that have been highlighted you will see that I am in full agreement with the Forums position and was recommending that the Forum did not continue to endorse method #1

"Based upon these test results, although the resulting bacon is unlikely to be harmful if eaten in moderation, the forum should consider carefully whether it is should continue endorsing the Brine #1 method as the resulting levels of cure were several times higher than the maximum USDA recommendations."

 

It was an interesting (and expensive!) test to do but I fully appreciate that it was a single experiment that really needs repeating by others to fully confirm the results. It did however highlight the massive difference between two methods that were both being recommended as safe on here to members who were new to curing. 

 

 

Edited for spelling mistakes and to slightly change the wording in one sentence for clarity


Edited by Wade - 1/15/16 at 3:17am
post #33 of 36
Sorry for your troubles Mtorts. If I was in your shoes I'd stuff as much, ready to eat or smoked sausage as I could handle, then freeze the remainder in bulk till you could get your hands on some pure nitrate. Being in Canada you might want to search for salt petre which is potassium nitrate.
post #34 of 36
"Anyway, back to a point I made earlier..... This forum stands by the USDA's recommended guidelines... "
----
If you check on the first page of the Meat Inspector Handbook it says USDA.
post #35 of 36
The incorrect nature of their interpretation has subsequently been confirmed by the USDA
_
USDA said that the 10% pickup method is not to be used?
post #36 of 36
Mttorts,
Apologies for hijacking your thread.
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