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AMPS Not Working plus Temp Stalled on Pork Loins - Page 2

post #21 of 39
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsis/topics/food-safety-education/get-answers/food-safety-fact-sheets/safe-food-handling/safe-minimum-internal-temperature-chart/ct_index

Safe Minimum Internal Temperature Chart


Safe steps in food handling, cooking, and storage are essential in preventing foodborne illness. You can't see, smell, or taste harmful bacteria that may cause illness. In every step of food preparation, follow the four guidelines to keep food safe:
•Clean—Wash hands and surfaces often.
•Separate—Separate raw meat from other foods.
•Cook—Cook to the right temperature.
•Chill—Refrigerate food promptly.

Cook all food to these minimum internal temperatures as measured with a food thermometer before removing food from the heat source. For reasons of personal preference, consumers may choose to cook food to higher temperatures.


Product

Minimum Internal Temperature & Rest Time

Beef, Pork, Veal & Lamb Steaks, chops, roasts 145 °F (62.8 °C) and allow to rest for at least 3 minutes
Ground meats 160 °F (71.1 °C)
Ham, fresh or smoked (uncooked) 145 °F (62.8 °C) and allow to rest for at least 3 minutes
Fully Cooked Ham
(to reheat) Reheat cooked hams packaged in USDA-inspected plants to 140 °F (60 °C) and all others to 165 °F (73.9 °C).




Product

Minimum Internal Temperature

All Poultry (breasts, whole bird, legs, thighs, and wings, ground poultry, and stuffing) 165 °F (73.9 °C)
Eggs 160 °F (71.1 °C)
Fish & Shellfish 145 °F (62.8 °C)
Leftovers 165 °F (73.9 °C)
Casseroles 165 °F (73.9 °C)

And then there is the time/temp table for "reduced temperature", " safe to eat method"....

Temperature Time Temperature Time
°F (°C) (Minutes) °F (°C) (Seconds)

130 (54.4) 112 min... 146 (63.3) 169 sec
131 (55.0) 89 min.... 147 (63.9) 134 sec
132 (55.6) 71 min.... 148 (64.4) 107 sec
133 (56.1) 56 min.... 149 (65.0) 85 sec
134 (56.7) 45 min.... 150 (65.6) 67 sec
135 (57.2) 36 min.... 151 (66.1) 54 sec
136 (57.8) 28 min.... 152 (66.7) 43 sec
137 (58.4) 23 min.... 153 (67.2) 34 sec
138 (58.9) 18 min.... 154 (67.8) 27 sec
139 (59.5) 15 min.... 155 (68.3) 22 sec
140 (60.0) 12 min.... 156 (68.9) 17 sec
141 (60.6) 9 min...... 157 (69.4) 14 sec
142 (61.1) 8 min...... 158 (70.0) 0 sec
143 (61.7) 6 min.......
144 (62.2) 5 min.......
145 (62.8) 4 min.......

Table C.1: Pasteurization times for beef, corned beef, lamb, pork and cured pork (FDA, 2009, 3-401.11.B.2).


Temperature........
...................... Time
°F (°C).............. 12% fat
136 (57.8)......... 81.4 min
137 (58.3)........ 65.5 min
138 (58.9)........ 52.9 min
139 (59.4)........ 43 min
140 (60.0)........ 35 min
141 (60.6)........ 28.7 min
142 (61.1)........ 23.7 min
143 (61.7)........ 19.8 min
144 (62.2)........ 16.6 min
145 (62.8)........ 13.8 min
146 (63.3)........ 11.5 min
148 (64.4)........ 7.7 min
150 (65.6)........ 4.9 min
152 (66.7)........ 2.8 min
154 (67.8)........ 1.6 min
156 (68.9)........ 1 min
158 (70.0)........ 40.9 sec
160 (71.1)........ 26.9 sec
162 (72.2)........ 17.7 sec
164 (73.3)........ 11.7 sec
166 (74.4)........ 0 sec
Table C.2: Pasteurization times for a 7D reduction in Salmonella for chicken and turkey (FSIS, 2005).
post #22 of 39

I am going to step in to this thread very carefully. It is not my point to offend or be argumentative.

1-Brickguy were you smoking pork loins or pork tenderloins? From your description it sounds like they were Tenderloins. I don't have a picture of a smoked loin but here are 3 Tenderloins. The fourth did not make it to the house.

 

2-For many years it was thought that Pork needed to be cooked to 160 degrees. Many people still believe that. (it is a constant battle at my house)

If you were cooking Tenderloins it only takes a bit over a hour and a quarter to hit 144. They typically are only about 1.5 inches at it thicket part.

A pork loin is a thick piece of meat and takes a lot longer.(4+) hours. When Tenderloin's are on sale here they are cheaper than ground beef. I usually smoke them once per month.  They come 2 per pack and usually are under 1.5 pounds per tenderloin. I just saw them at a local market at 3.49 per pound . Most all of the packages were under 11.00 dollars. They are fast and easy to smoke. Since the smoke time  is short I use oak or hickory pellets with all my vents wide open. Jim  

post #23 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brickguy221 View Post
 

Cliff, Pork is done at 170 degrees and not 144 degrees.  If you want it almost where you "might" see and "might" not not see a wee-tiny hint of pink, then 165 degrees and if you want to see a wee bit of pink, 160 degrees .... At 144 degrees, pork is too red and even a hint of blood juice like a medium rare to rare steak. I agree the carry over will raise the IT approx 5*, but the center is still going to be too red at 144 = 5 for 149 degrees. I have tried 150* before and it was too red and once sliced, it had to be heated in microwave to get the red out and safe to eat.

 

The "done" temp for pork was changed a couple of years ago, 145° is the new safe temp, see DaveOmak's post above for all the details.

It does sound to me as well that you were cooking tenderloins not pork loins, a full size loin will weigh 8-10 pounds. I usually cut them in thirds for easier cooking, tenderloin gets put on the pit whole.

post #24 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brickguy221 View Post
 

Bear, like I posted above in reference to Cliff's post, pork isn't done at 144*.

 

These Hormel pork loins are small and not very big around and only weigh 1.5#. They are not like a large 4# or so pork loin. I have been smoking them in my MES for a bit over 2 years and they are completely done in 1.5 to 1.75 hrs max at 230-235 degrees in the smoker. When my wife used to do these in the oven prior to my getting a MES, they only took 1.5 to 1.75 hrs.

 

Possibly your pork loins were larger than mine???


OK--That explains it.

 

The Pork Loins I buy are about 2 Feet long & weigh about 9 or 10 pounds each. You must have had Pork Tenderloins. They're just little skinny things.

 

I agree with you about 145° being a little rare. I usually stop cooking at 145°, and they coast to 150°. That's a lot better than before the USDA dropped the safe temp from 160° to 145°. 160° was often a bit on the Dry Side.

 

Bear

post #25 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffcarter View Post
 

 

The "done" temp for pork was changed a couple of years ago, 145° is the new safe temp, see DaveOmak's post above for all the details.

It does sound to me as well that you were cooking tenderloins not pork loins, a full size loin will weigh 8-10 pounds. I usually cut them in thirds for easier cooking, tenderloin gets put on the pit whole.

At 145-150, the new rule may say "done", but they are still red, not pink, but red in the middle like rare steak and some people like steak rare and some (myself included) don't. At 160-165 degrees, they are perfect to my family's taste. At 160, they are still a bit pink in the middle, but after setting 10 minutes or so, the pink turns to a "hint of barely pink".

 

I may be wrong in saying this, but I believe the new 145 degree rule is intended to mean it is safe to eat at that temperature, but doesn't mean they are completely done, only safe to eat. Same for steak when cooked rare, medium-rare, medium, well done, etc. Thus we don't like our pork that red and sometimes it will even show a hint of blood at that temperature in the middle of the loin if not let sit 15-20 minutes after smoking. I have always removed pork loins and tenderloins at 160-165 degrees and never had a problem getting that temperature until this time when they became stuck for some unknown reason at 144 degrees for 50 minutes. 

 

These particular pork loins are Hormel Pork Loins and are labeled likewise. They come in 1.5# packages. Price is usally $8.99 per loin at the store we shop and $9.99 at another store with slightly higher prices on everything. However, I usually buy a bunch of them at one time at the store we shop at when they put them on sale for $5.99 and even once in awhile $4.99.

 

As for pork tenderloins, I buy then at Sams and they are smaller in diameter and longer in length than the Hormel Pork Loins and look like the picture jted posted. However, the Hormel ones are bigger round and shorter. Still both the Hormel Pork Loins and Sams Tenderloins all weigh in the area of 1.5#. 

post #26 of 39
I buy meat when it's on sale. I don't believe I have ever spent over $2/lb. on boneless pork loin. Regular price is under $3/lb. As far as finished IT temps of different meats to each their own. The whole pork loin on the rotisserie for Father's day was pulled at 145*F IT and let rest 15 min. Sure it was pink but the juices run clear.
-Kurt
post #27 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearcarver View Post
 


OK--That explains it.

 

The Pork Loins I buy are about 2 Feet long & weigh about 9 or 10 pounds each. You must have had Pork Tenderloins. They're just little skinny things.

 

I agree with you about 145° being a little rare. I usually stop cooking at 145°, and they coast to 150°. That's a lot better than before the USDA dropped the safe temp from 160° to 145°. 160° was often a bit on the Dry Side.

 

Bear

It's been awhile, but we used to buy pork loins similar to what you described here at Sams. We would cut them into boneless pork chops. Those chops looked like what they call here,  "butterfly pork chops". We would save one of two pieces cut to approx 8" long cut  from these 2+  footers and roast in oven with potatoes, carrots, green peppers, onion, etc. It's been awhile, so I don't recall the exact time that took, but am thinking around 1.75 to 2 hrs. I did 3 in my smoker not too long after I got my first MES 2+ years ago. I used the same procedure I did this time with ribs in rib rack on second shelf from bottm shelf and the pork loins on top shelf. Took them out at 165 degrees. I am thinking the time was approx 1.75 and maybe 2 hrs. I am guessing they weighed probably about 2# and maybe 2.5# each cut into those lengths.

 

Anyhow, I put them in at the same time I put the ribs in and took them out when done. I then wrapped them in foil to keep them warm for another couple hrs or so while the ribs finished smoking. When ribs were done, I cut the ribs, then cut the pork loins and quess what??? .... that 2 hrs or a bit more they sat wrapped in foil to keep them warm, they continued to cook and were DRY. Even warped the plastic in my cooler I put them in during that time.... sigh

 

So, this time I put the pork loins in when the ribs had 2 hrs to go so that they wouldn't be dry when I sliced them. 

 

I am still at a loss as to why the temperature this time stalled at 144* and stayed there and even according to the doneness of the loins, they  continued to cook.

post #28 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr K View Post

I buy meat when it's on sale. I don't believe I have ever spent over $2/lb. on boneless pork loin. Regular price is under $3/lb. As far as finished IT temps of different meats to each their own. The whole pork loin on the rotisserie for Father's day was pulled at 145*F IT and let rest 15 min. Sure it was pink but the juices run clear.
-Kurt

Clear juice is fine, but red or even pink juice isn't.

post #29 of 39
This whole air flow conversation is screaming "mailbox mod". You won't be burning a row a pellets every 4 1/2 hours with proper air flow and the mail box mod will give you plenty of air flow.
post #30 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillbillyrkstr View Post

This whole air flow conversation is screaming "mailbox mod". You won't be burning a row a pellets every 4 1/2 hours with proper air flow and the mail box mod will give you plenty of air flow.

You are probably right to a point and I may have to do that in the end, but will first try some things that Tood told me to try. Per Todd, the air flow in the new BT Gen 2.5 Smokers is more restricted than it is in the Gen 2.0.

post #31 of 39

Brickguy, In regards to you air flow problem you might try a simple stack. If your exhaust is 3 inch on your Blue tooth a vegetable can is quick and of no cost.  It might be the ticket.

On my 30" it helps to create a flow.( I smoke in a corner) If it works you have many choices some folks use double cans,  big bean cans, aluminum 90's or even 3' exhaust pipe

 

I tried them all.  I decided to use this one

DSCN2485.JPG

All they do is promote flow.  Jted

post #32 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jted View Post
 

Brickguy, In regards to you air flow problem you might try a simple stack. If your exhaust is 3 inch on your Blue tooth a vegetable can is quick and of no cost.  It might be the ticket.

On my 30" it helps to create a flow.( I smoke in a corner) If it works you have many choices some folks use double cans,  big bean cans, aluminum 90's or even 3' exhaust pipe

 

I tried them all.  I decided to use this one

DSCN2485.JPG

All they do is promote flow.  Jted

I am always "all ears" for improvements in anything. In trying to understand about "cans" ... are you saying to cut both the top and bottom from a can and set it over my vent to experiment to see what happens?

 

If so, how does this added "chimney help create more air flow?

post #33 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brickguy221 View Post
 

I am always "all ears" for improvements in anything. In trying to understand about "cans" ... are you saying to cut both the top and bottom from a can and set it over my vent to experiment to see what happens?

 

If so, how does this added "chimney help create more air flow?


I don't know the physic's behind the flow. It works like a home chimney on your house if you have one.

Yes cut both ends out and just put it in the hole. My damper was removed rather easily,  just a 10 mm socket and vice grip pliers. It is a two piece with the nut on top, and one half was stamped into the box . A very easy mod.

post #34 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jted View Post
 

Brickguy, In regards to you air flow problem you might try a simple stack. If your exhaust is 3 inch on your Blue tooth a vegetable can is quick and of no cost.  It might be the ticket.

On my 30" it helps to create a flow.( I smoke in a corner) If it works you have many choices some folks use double cans,  big bean cans, aluminum 90's or even 3' exhaust pipe

 

I tried them all.  I decided to use this one

DSCN2485.JPG

All they do is promote flow.  Jted

jted, where did you purchase that chimney?

post #35 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brickguy221 View Post
 

jted, where did you purchase that chimney?


 Brickguy. here is a link to a thread I did called to stack or not to stack the ordering info is there. Remember you must use the phone to call. You cannot buy from Lowes.

 

 

 

            http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/166588/to-stack-or-not-to-stack-a-mes

 

When you get to the thread you can click on any photo to see more pictures in the file.

 

P/M me if you have any questions.    Jted    

 
  • Sorry, this item is not available in
  • Image not available

      

 

 

post #36 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jted View Post
 


 Brickguy. here is a link to a thread I did called to stack or not to stack the ordering info is there. Remember you must use the phone to call. You cannot buy from Lowes.

 

 

 

            http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/166588/to-stack-or-not-to-stack-a-mes

 

When you get to the thread you can click on any photo to see more pictures in the file.

 

P/M me if you have any questions.    Jted    

 
  • Sorry, this item is not available in
  • Image not available

      

 

 

Thanks Jim ... I'll check it out. Todd told me that getting a 90* aluminum  elbow at Home Depot would really help the draft as well as eliminate back draft and it would make my AMPS burn better along with pulling the chip loader out 2" and turning it dump side down. If it works, I would rather have something like you have.

post #37 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brickguy221 View Post
 

I smoked 4 slabs of Baby Back Ribs today and also smoked 4 Hormel 1 1/2# each Pork Loins. The results of both were....

 

1. Baby Back Ribs .... I used Todd's Pitmaster Mix Pellets today in a 5 x 8 tray and raised so that there is air circulation under it.  I had 15 people and 11 people including myself, said "not enough smoke". Couldn't hardly taste any smoke on the ribs. I smoked for 4hrs 40 minutes. I filled 2 rows in the tray and it only burned 1 row and it just started to turn the corner for the second row when ribs were finished at 4 hrs and 40 minutes. 

 

2. Pork Loins .... I had something happen that never happened before. I had the ribs in Smoker for 2 1/2 hrs and then I put the 4 Pork Loins above the ribs on the top rack. I used my Maverick to follow temperature. Used both probes. At approx 1 hr 15 minutes, my Maverick said 144 degrees on both probes. 30 minutes later it still sid 144 degrees, so I inserted my Weber Thermometer thinking maybe something was wrong with the Maverick, and my old Weber also said 144 degrees. Another 20 minutes later all still said 144 degrees, so the temp was stuck at 144 degrees for 50 minutes and not moving, even after I increased the MES temp from 230 degrees to 260 degrees, the temps stayed at 144 degrees on the Pork Loins. 

 

I then decided to take out a Pork Loin and cut it to see if it was undercooked and it was done and on the verge of being over cooked...... So how is all of this possible? ... 144 degrees for 50 minutes without a single degree increase and yet the Pork Loins were done and almost over cooked.......

 

3. AMPS .... I am disappointed in this thing. It didn't produce enough smoke on the Jack Daniels Pellets which in a way is understandable because I found out later that the Jack Daniels Pellets are made from the charcoal it is filtered thru and not the barrel wood that Jack Daniels Wood Chips are made from, so they won't smoke as much from teh charcoal..... 

 

Ok, now what about the Pitmaster Mix Pellets???? .... Not enough smoke from them either per 11 of the 15 people present. It only used 1 row and just turning the corner into second row at the end of  4 hrs and 40 minutes. The smoke was thin and barely visible and the taste of ribs said that is way too little. I removed the ribs from smoker @ 4:45 pm and left tray in smoker. I returned at 6:15 pm to take out tray and clean smoker and it was smoking really great. Whole smoker was full fo smoke. It had used up almost another row of pellets in 1 1/2 hrs, yet only used 1 row and just start to turn the corner in 4 hrs 40 minutes prior to that. 

 

While the ribs were smoking today, I even tried pulling the chip loader out to various amounts trying to generate more smoke with increased oxygen and it didn't matter whether it was all the way in or out one inch - two inches - 3 inches - etc, it had no effect on the amount of smoke. 

 

Any suggestions before I put all of the pellets I bought up for sale and return to wood chips???  I had really high hopes for this AMPS thing and am now really disappointed in it.


I agree that it's important to know what smoker you're using. I smoked two racks of baby backs in my MES 30 (I posted elsewhere about it). I used the AMNPS filled with Todd's hickory pellets and my ET-733. I lit the AMNPS with gelled alcohol and the it never stopped producing smoke throughout the 5 hours I cooked the ribs. The one problem I had was when I had the smoker door open to remove the ribs to foil them and the wood pellets erupted into flames. Never had that happen before. I removed the AMNPS, blew out the flames, dropped fresh pellets onto the burnt area (which was still smoking) and put the tray back into the smoker.

 

Since these were ribs I used the probes to monitor the interior smoker temp from two separate racks and it all worked fine.

 

The only time I've had meat stall for a long time in my smoker was the chucky I attempted last year when the IT got stuck at 160° I think it was. But that smoke was fraught with problems anyway.

 

I've been using the AMNPS with a variety of pellets, including Pitmaster's Choice, and it's always produced exactly the amount of smoke I wanted it to and without it going out during the smoke unless the pellets were all used up.

post #38 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveOmak View Post

DO NOT USE A WATER PAN WITH THE AMNPS.....

Steam replaces the oxygen and the air in the smoker.... It won't smoke in a steam room....


Dave is exactly right on his comment. I had the same issue when I first got my AMPS, thus a mail box mod was done to the MES and problem easily solved and smokes perfectly every time. To heck with the chips IMO, personally the pellets are less of a hassle and do the job fine.

post #39 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brickguy221 View Post
 

 

 

The ribs were in rib rack on second shelf from bottom shelf and reached within 2-3 inches from where top shelf is. The pork loins were on top shelf, yet I had an oven thermometer on top shelf and according to it, the temp was 5 degree less than the controller said.

 

Just got an Email from Todd and he said to place the water pan on floor and the MAZE on a shelf where the water pan normally sits. My concern here is meat drippings getting on the MAZE and if I cover the top of MAZE, it will limit air flow??? He also said to pull out chip loader 2" and turn dump side down. He also said the air flow is more limited in the Gen 2.5 than it is in the Gen 2.0.

 

I think I will take one step at a time and start with chip loader and go from there.

 

You don't think the ribs/rib rack could have been blocking off the air flow from going up. It seemed to burn really well after I removed them from smoker.


I used to pull the chip loader completely out and take out the chip tray, and the damper wide open....was even known to place a small box fan on low 5-6' away from the loader tray hole to create a draft effect to make it draw and smoke on those damp wet days that are still.

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