Botsulism: Just cursious about the safety always preached.

rgautheir20420 · Apr 1, 2015

Foamheart said:
Case recommended this site to me..........................................

http://www.lemproducts.com/botulism...+Vacuum+Sealing&utm_campaign=EMAILsealer15_v2

I read through the whole page and don't see where it says to add the water. Now I'm really confused....

hillbillyrkstr · Apr 1, 2015

It's always zombies....

ALWAYS

foamheart · Apr 1, 2015

rgautheir20420 said:
I read through the whole page and don't see where it says to add the water. Now I'm really confused....

I think this is the Mexican Bot. they already know about the water there.

kc5tpy · Apr 1, 2015

Hello. I must be the stupid person here. I am mising something. In post 24 he asked a direct question. He then clouded that with statics but the basic question remains.

He asked why publish the food safety advisories versus why NOT add the advisories to your replies. OK it is paraphrased but that was the "BASIC" question he asked as I understand it. The statistics, facts and figures seem irrelevant to me regarding this particular question, We can argue all the facts and figures out there. Why we add the advisories. as per his question. It's not about how likely you are to contract botulism but why do we keep adding the warnings? It;s his question. If he asked the wrong question then that is his fault. If he wanted to discuss the "possibility" of getting botulism then he should have framed his question in a different manner. His question is why should I follow these rules versus why would you not follow these rules. So we see how confusion happens. So Frank are you questioning the chances of getting botulism; and I say botulism because you narrowed it down; or are you questioning the chances of getting sick by eating some badly prepared food? Just so we are talking apples and apples herer. Keep Smokin!

Danny

fpmich · Apr 2, 2015

Whew! Slow down and chill out folks. I only asked a "question". I didn't drop a bomb on your homestead.. Sheesh!

Thanks everyone for your replies and input.

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding going here.

Some of you may have just just skimmed my posts, and then replied in a non-productive way.

However, there are some well thought out, and helpful posts in these replies too.

I appreciate those much more, than the ones implying I am an idiot, promoting the ignoring of safety guidelines, nor following them myself.

I don't recall in either my 1st post, or my second post in #24, where I was giving the impression that no one needs to follow safety practices. Those attacking, instead of informing, should be ashamed. What would your mother say if you attacked one of her friends the same way, IN PERSON, who asked what you considered a stupid question?

Now back to topic. My question was why so much emphasis put on botulism safety over all others. There are other bug-a-boos in meat that can make us sick and even die from too.

I think the chance of getting food poisoning from them is much more prevalent, than botulism.

Now, maybe the answer to my question MAY BE, that if you follow the guidelines for botulism prevention, you also can prevent the other nasty bugs from invading your intestines. I don't know if that is true or not, but my guess is, it is for the most part.

But no one ever says that. It's always botulism. It makes it seem like bot is running rampant in the country. It isn't. The other bugs are.

The govt safety guideline have an ample leeway built into them to make sure that that even if someone screws up a little bit here or there, they are covered.

So I don't feel that if we miss 40 to 140 by 15 or 20 minutes, we will die from eating it. Or if our food is 2* below guidelines. I am NOT saying ignore safe practices. Just that if you miss a time or temp by just a little bit, you chances are still very slim of getting sick from botulism.

I used to drive semi all over the country, and I know first hand about food poisoning. I've had it several times. Always from restaurants, but never at home in my life of 69 years.

3 of those were very severe to the point I had to have someone else come and take my load on to it's destination. 2 of those caused me to come home and have my wife help me scrub and bleach sanitize my entire truck. I washed all the bed clothes and even all my clothes that hadn't been worn yet. And one case caused me to miss 4 weeks of work. I could not eat or drink anything. I lost over 25 lbs. in 3 weeks. I became very dehydrated and actually thought I was going to die one night. I sat in my chair debating whether or not it would be easier on my wife to find me dead in the chair, or in bed with her. I opted for the chair. Thankfully it didn't happen, but I thought it was going to my last night in this life.

So don't consider me stupid enough to just ignore guidelines for the sake of saying I've done it. I try at all times to follow well within the guidelines, but sometimes it happens that I fall short a bit. I don't fret about it. Now, if I fall way out of guidelines, then I toss it with no remorse. I've done that more than once.

hillbillyrkstr · Apr 2, 2015

Every time this subject comes up all hell breaks loose. I just sit back and enjoy the ride! Let the insults fly.

hillbillyrkstr · Apr 2, 2015

Also dinger said there would be zombies. If that's not enough to stop people from playing around with low oxygen environments, and botulism I'm not sure what is....

dcarch · Apr 2, 2015

Those of you who know all about food safety, please excuse my ignorance on this topic, and please permit me to speak. Like the OP, I am here to learn.

I am puzzle by all the warnings about “don’t stick your thermometer in your meat”. Is there any proof that is as dangerous as everyone’s perception?

I forgot the exact number, something like 5%? Or 15%? 25%? of all the beef you buy are already perforated hundreds of times by a process called “mechanically tenderized” and 85% of the tenderized steaks are served in restaurants. There is no labeling require for meat sold this way.

Mother Nature always wins.

Remember astronauts in gravity free space? In a very short time, they couldn’t even walk when they returned to earth. If you don’t exercise your immune system, soon the nasties will take over.

At this point in the USA, we are kept alive artificially by spending annually $3,800,000,000,000 in medicine. Medicine is basically chemical wheelchairs for the physiologically handicapped.

There is no such thing as “Super Bugs”, it is just that we have now become “Super Weak” animals.

Yes, absolutely “When in doubt, throw it out”, don't take chances, but make sure you really read the whole concept of food safety recommendations and only apply the relevant guidelines to your own situation, IMHO.

dcarch

hillbillyrkstr · Apr 2, 2015

I was hoping to only write about zombies and the eventual zombie apocalypse on this thread but I will say this. I don't stab meat (brisket/shoulders) and take the temp till im at least 4+ hours in. No reason to before that anyway. And if it helps me to not shove bacteria deep into the meat its a win/win and I'm helping to stop the zombie take over.

rgautheir20420 · Apr 2, 2015

dcarch said:
Those of you who know all about food safety, please excuse my ignorance on this topic, and please permit me to speak. Like the OP, I am here to learn.

I am puzzle by all the warnings about “don’t stick your thermometer in your meat”. Is there any proof that is as dangerous as everyone’s perception?

I forgot the exact number, something like 5%? Or 15%? 25%? of all the beef you buy are already perforated hundreds of times by a process called “mechanically tenderized” and 85% of the tenderized steaks are served in restaurants. There is no labeling require for meat sold this way.

Mother Nature always wins.

Remember astronauts in gravity free space? In a very short time, they couldn’t even walk when they returned to earth. If you don’t exercise your immune system, soon the nasties will take over.

At this point in the USA, we are kept alive artificially by spending annually $3,800,000,000,000 in medicine. Medicine is basically chemical wheelchairs for the physiologically handicapped.

There is no such thing as “Super Bugs”, it is just that we have now become “Super Weak” animals.

Yes, absolutely “When in doubt, throw it out”, don't take chances, but make sure you really read the whole concept of food safety recommendations and only apply the relevant guidelines to your own situation, IMHO.

dcarch

You know dcarch. I'm gonna take a stab at this as this is MY own understanding of the "don't stab your meat right away" rule. When smoking pork butts and whole cut pieces of meat, I use the 40-140 rule more for any part of the meat that is exposed to the outside air and bacteria...meaning the exterior of the meat. Seeing as the meat is still a whole cut, the interior has not been exposed yet. Quite often the internal temps of a pork shoulder don't get above 140 within 4 hours of being removed from the fridge, and that's technically when the clock starts I think. Back to the stabbing your meat thing, so if you stab your meat at the beginning, your basically opening up a wound in the meat and allowing bacteria to get into the interior of the meat where the IT will be lower than the suggested 140 for a longer period of time.

That's my take and it might be wrong but ohwell. However, I still see no reason to stab the thermo in there before a few hours into the smoke anyways. There are exceptions of course to stabbing at the beginning....like maybe a whole prime roast or something like that. I'll still usually wait a couple hours because I know it will good.

hillbillyrkstr · Apr 2, 2015

That's exactly what I said minus the zombies.

atomicsmoke · Apr 2, 2015

Dcarch,

I have no knowledge of cuts of meat being perforated/tenderized before being sold. Are you sure about this? That would be a major concern.

But you touched a critical point here: the condition of the meat when we buy it. It's common knowledge (and legal) that the industrially produced meat is loaded with pathogens. As long as we chase $.99/lb butts nothing will change.

What is not being said is the amount of abuse the meat goes thru before we pick it up. Every grocery store you shop at has piles of meats in an open refrigerated display. Sometimes ft high. As customers dig for the best looking piece they move them around. There is a very good chance your ground meat package was in the 40-140 temp range for 4hours before you buy it. And this is just what we see. Who knows what else behind the meat packing room doors.

rgautheir20420 · Apr 2, 2015

atomicsmoke said:
Dcarch,

I have no knowledge of cuts of meat being perforated/tenderized before being sold. Are you sure about this? That would be a major concern.

But you touched a critical point here: the condition of the meat when we buy it. It's common knowledge (and legal) that the industrially produced meat is loaded with pathogens. As long as we chase $.99/lb butts nothing will change.

What is not being said is the amount of abuse the meat goes thru before we pick it up. Every grocery store you shop at has piles of meats in an open refrigerated display. Sometimes ft high. As customers dig for the best looking piece they move them around. There is a very good chance your ground meat package was in the 40-140 temp range for 4hours before you buy it. And this is just what we see. Who knows what else behind the meat packing room doors.

atomic, that's the exact reason I try and buy cryo vac sealed cuts. I'm not huge on trusting how sanitary the guys behind the counter are when cutting up the mornings meat haul.

dcarch · Apr 2, 2015

rgautheir20420 said:
You know dcarch. I'm gonna take a stab at this as this is MY own understanding of the "don't stab your meat right away" rule. When smoking pork butts and whole cut pieces of meat, I use the 40-140 rule more for any part of the meat that is exposed to the outside air and bacteria...meaning the exterior of the meat. Seeing as the meat is still a whole cut, the interior has not been exposed yet. Quite often the internal temps of a pork shoulder don't get above 140 within 4 hours of being removed from the fridge, and that's technically when the clock starts I think. Back to the stabbing your meat thing, so if you stab your meat at the beginning, your basically opening up a wound in the meat and allowing bacteria to get into the interior of the meat where the IT will be lower than the suggested 140 for a longer period of time.

That's my take and it might be wrong but ohwell. However, I still see no reason to stab the thermo in there before a few hours into the smoke anyways. There are exceptions of course to stabbing at the beginning....like maybe a whole prime roast or something like that. I'll still usually wait a couple hours because I know it will good.

My points:

1. Is there any study showing poking with a thermometer introduces microbes into the meat? ( I know, common sense. Try to put a touch of food coloring on the tip of your thermometer, stick the probe into the meat, and see how much food color you actually get to the inside of the meat.).

2. A significant amount of the meat you buy already have been poked deep hundreds of times when you buy them, how important is it for you to poke one more hole?

3. Safety guideline are for the very young, very weak, very sick and very old. Are you one of them?

dcarch

atomicsmoke said:
Dcarch,

I have no knowledge of cuts of meat being perforated/tenderized before being sold. Are you sure about this? That would be a major concern.

-----

I am very surprised that this is seldom discussed.

Google "Mechanically tenderized meat"

We have gotten ourselves so weak and so sick by being so clean and by following safety guideline like zombies.

dcarch

rgautheir20420 · Apr 2, 2015

My points:

1. Is there any study showing poking with a thermometer introduces microbes into the meat? ( I know, common sense. Try to put a touch of food coloring on the tip of your thermometer, stick the probe into the meat, and see how much food color you actually get to the inside of the meat.). Never seen one.

2. A significant amount of the meat you buy already have been poked deep hundreds of times when you buy them, how important is it for you to poke one more hole? This sounds like you're talking about "brine pumped" cuts. I've stuck at the beginning and a few hours in. Personally, I don't think it matters. I guess not probing at the beginning helps me take my mind off the meat...otherwise I might be looking at it more cause I'm like that.

3. Safety guideline are for the very young, very weak, very sick and very old. Are you one of them? Disagree. Safety guidelines are for everyone's safety. I'm a 31 year old healthy man. Don't think I can get sick from poorly prepared or handled food? I'll take that as a complement, but I'll continue to follow the safe food prep guidelines for now.

atomicsmoke · Apr 2, 2015

rgautheir20420 said:
atomic, that's the exact reason I try and buy cryo vac sealed cuts. I'm not huge on trusting how sanitary the guys behind the counter are when cutting up the mornings meat haul.

Cryovac or not they are still thrown around and spend a long time at temps they shouldn't . Touch a few packages next time you shop. You can easily tell they are not cold.

dcarch · Apr 2, 2015

rgautheir20420 said:
------

3. Safety guideline are for the very young, very weak, very sick and very old. Are you one of them? Disagree. Safety guidelines are for everyone's safety. ----------

Please read the thinking behind all these safety guidelines we throw around.

Just to be very very very clear. Do not ever fool around with other people's health, you can do whatever you want with your own.

While I am very relaxed cooking for myself, I am 200% more careful than many of you when i have to make food for others. I sanitize the whole cooking environment including using a 50 watt germicidal UV light to kill any possible germs, from ceiling down.

dcarch

inkjunkie · Apr 2, 2015

Have a neighbor that claims to be a farmer. His plans are to strike it rich by raising/slaughtering pigs. After joining here I seen it mentioned that ALL pork needs to spend 30 days frozen prior to consumption. Mentioned this to my know it all neighbor and he claims it is BS. Apparently his plans are to sell the meat at local farmers markets. This scares me more than the thought of botulism. One could argue that you can buy his products and just freeze them yourself. But not everyone knows about how pork should be frozen. Not to mention if any one seen the way there land is kept it might make them wonder if everything was sanitary when the pigs were butchered.
I consider myself lucky to have never even had a mild case of food poisoning. I do my best to keep things clean and to adhere to the basic food safety rules. That being said I do feel some folks are more than a bit paranoid about things.....like my prior comment about stale smoke. To a point some of this is common sense.

hillbillyrkstr · Apr 2, 2015

I'm calling BS on that 30 days frozen deal. But I live down the road from a pig farmer so ill ask him tonight.

bluewhisper · Apr 2, 2015

Here's an article I wrote about bacteria

http://www.ehow.com/about_6399278_definition-anaerobic-aerobic-bacteria.html

Botsulism: Just cursious about the safety always preached.

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