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Prague Powder #1 - Page 3

post #41 of 62
The 10% pick-up is just an average, actual pick-up may be more or less than that.
post #42 of 62
You bet it can. That's my point. Can it be 44%?
post #43 of 62
No, not that much.
The only way to know for sure is to weight.

Just so there's no confusion and everyone understands....percent pick-up is the total amount of brine solution absorbed by
the cured product in relation weight.
Edited by DiggingDogFarm - 1/18/15 at 2:03pm
post #44 of 62
If the pickup is over 11.75% the nitrite level will exceed the 200ppm limit. Won't be wise the advise the OP his brine might be unsafe?
post #45 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicsmoke View Post

If the pickup is over 11.75% the nitrite level will exceed the 200ppm limit. Won't be wise the advise the OP his brine might be unsafe?

Appreciate the concern.  Here is another link that confirms that 4 oz per gallon is safe. 

 

http://www.sausagemaker.com/productdocs/Breakdown_of_Nitrite_Level_in_Brine_with_InstaCure_%28Imperial%29.pdf

 

Also, take a looks at pops recipe again.  It agrees that ~4 oz is the max.  

post #46 of 62
Unsafe or MAY, possibly, exceed the government limit (for commercial products) by a little bit?
As I said above, the only way to know for sure is to weigh...I'm not going to guess one way or the other.
If he knows the start weight of the meat he can check at any time.

That's why attention to detail and keeping good notes is good idea....for piece of mind, if no other reason.
post #47 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjp1991 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicsmoke View Post

If the pickup is over 11.75% the nitrite level will exceed the 200ppm limit. Won't be wise the advise the OP his brine might be unsafe?
Appreciate the concern.  Here is another link that confirms that 4 oz per gallon is safe. 

http://www.sausagemaker.com/productdocs/Breakdown_of_Nitrite_Level_in_Brine_with_InstaCure_%28Imperial%29.pdf

Also, take a looks at pops recipe again.  It agrees that ~4 oz is the max.  

You're not understanding in-going nitrite, and neither does that SausageMaker, apparently.
There are serious errors in that PDF.

See this thread from a couple years ago... http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/137916/who-can-spot-the-errors

Again folks, only use the formula I posted above to calculate IN-GOING nitrite.
post #48 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggingDogFarm View Post


You're not understanding in-going nitrite, and neither does that SausageMaker, apparently.
There are serious errors in that PDF.

See this thread from a couple years ago... http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/137916/who-can-spot-the-errors

Again folks, only use the formula I posted above to calculate IN-GOING nitrite.

yes, this calculation does not take into consideration the total weight of the brine.  However, since the brine is actually heavier, when you add the sugar which dissolves, etc. the PPM goes down.  This is just a ballpark to show its still under 200 PPM.  

 

Have also cross checked against the USDA manual and come up with below the 200 PPM max. 

 

Method One
The first method assumes that the meat or poultry absorbs not more than the level of
nitrite in the cover pickle. Hence, the calculation for nitrite is based on the green weight
of the meat or poultry (as is the case with pumped products), but uses percent pick-up as
the percent pump. The percent pick-up is the total amount of cover pickle absorbed by
the meat or poultry. It is used in the calculation for immersion cured products in the same
way percent pump is used in the (previous) calculation for pumped products.
< Calculation Formula (using % pick-up)
(lb nitrite × % pick-up × 1,000,000)/lb pickle or brine = PPM

 

Page 22 http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf 

 

Again, appreciate your initial calculations.  Feeling pretty confident things will be alright.  Will post from the ER if they are not. :icon_smile:

post #49 of 62
In other words, they're not doing it correctly. which makes the PDF worthless.
post #50 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggingDogFarm View Post

Unsafe or MAY, possibly, exceed the government limit (for commercial products) by a little bit?
As I said above, the only way to know for sure is to weigh...I'm not going to guess one way or the other.
If he knows the start weight of the meat he can check at any time.

That's why attention to detail and keeping good notes is good idea....for piece of mind, if no other reason.
By a little bit? How do you know that? How do you know how thick is his brisket, how long he will brine it, temmperature, etc? If pops brine gives meat with 120ppm that is 44% pick up.
So, yeah, much higher pick up is possible.

I guess safe recipe around here means you won't die if you eat this meat. You might get colon cancer later on but hey...will deal with that then.
post #51 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicsmoke View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggingDogFarm View Post

Unsafe or MAY, possibly, exceed the government limit (for commercial products) by a little bit?
As I said above, the only way to know for sure is to weigh...I'm not going to guess one way or the other.
If he knows the start weight of the meat he can check at any time.

That's why attention to detail and keeping good notes is good idea....for piece of mind, if no other reason.
By a little bit? How do you know that? How do you know how thick is his brisket, how long he will brine it, temmperature, etc? If pops brine gives meat with 120ppm that is 44% pick up.
So, yeah, much higher pick up is possible.

I guess safe recipe around here means you won't die if you eat this meat. You might get colon cancer later on but hey...will deal with that then.

icon_eek.gif

Sorry, but you're just not understanding this.
I strongly recommend that you get a GOOD book and do some studying so that you don't worry yourself so much!!!!!
post #52 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggingDogFarm View Post

icon_eek.gif

Sorry, but you're just not understanding this.
I strongly recommend that you get a GOOD book and do some studying so that you don't worry yourself so much!!!!!
Yeah...that's not it. Osmosis works the same whether I (or you) understand it or not.

You admited yourself you have no clue how much his nitrite level will be.
post #53 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicsmoke View Post

Yeah...that's not it. Osmosis works the same whether I (or you) understand it or not.

head-wall.gif

Again, PLEASE do some studying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicsmoke View Post

You admited yourself you have no clue how much his nitrite level will be.

I knew early on that this thread was headed for the crapper.
I posted HOW to calculate IN-GOING nitrite...it's up to you or whoever to do the calculations for your particular situation....it's right there in black and white.
PLEASE read ALL that I posted above!
It's also up to YOU to fully understand what you're doing when you cure meat and PLEASE don't advise others until you do!!!


wtf1.gif
Edited by DiggingDogFarm - 1/18/15 at 4:20pm
post #54 of 62
Yet you advise others while admitting you cannot know the pickup ratio.
post #55 of 62
That's why, TWICE, I said that the only way to know for SURE is to weigh.

I also said that 10% is an average...a common average. ....it's used VERY frequently.

It's mentioned at least 9 times in the Processing Inspectors' Calculations Manual.

Even the OP mentioned that "10% pump" is noted of the package of cure #1 that he has....the equation is the same....pump OR pick-up!
Edited by DiggingDogFarm - 1/18/15 at 5:34pm
post #56 of 62

Hi Diggin Dog Farm

 

Sorry, I am trying to get my head around all this. The calcualations here take into account the weight of the water, the sugar and the salt, and comes down to 171 ppm on 10% pickup.

 

I have been bumbling along adding weight of water PLUS meat using what I think is your calculator. My input is as follows

 

4 litres of water plus 2 kilos meat = 6 kilos.

 

Cure strength is 6.25% and I am looking for 156 ppm nitrite, 5% salt and 3% sugar.

 

My calculator says I need 14.98 gms cure, 285 gms additional salt and 180 grams of sugar.

 

Also, I pump the meat and then immerse in the brine for 5 days or more, after which I assume that the meat and brine would be in equilibrium and would then be safe.

 

Am I correct ? I can't seem to work it backwards and really would appreciate help, as here we dont get prague powder, but I have 2 curing powders, one at 0.9 % ( so 17.75 gms per kilo) and the other is at 6% (so for this one I jusrt use the prague powder measurements.

 

Help!

post #57 of 62

I am not sure if DDF is online much these days or at all. The last time he posted was April last year and I know he was quite ill then.

 

It is not clear from above what you are trying to do.

 

Quote:
Sorry, I am trying to get my head around all this. The calculations here take into account the weight of the water, the sugar and the salt, and comes down to 171 ppm on 10% pickup.
 
...
 
Also, I pump the meat and then immerse in the brine for 5 days or more, after which I assume that the meat and brine would be in equilibrium and would then be safe

 

The brine that you would use for pumping with the 10% pickup calculation and the one used for equilibrium brining are different. One is usually 10x stronger than the other.

 

The cure that you describe is fine for the equilibrium brining and you could either leave it immersed to reach equilibrium in the brine (5-14 days depending on the thickness of the meat) or you could inject and immerse if you are wanting it to cure faster - though this is not a common thing to do for bacon but can be if you are curing a larger meat joint or a bone in joint. With this brine method forget anything about a 10% pickup.

 

When calculating your brine with the 0.9% nitrite then for the 6 kg brine/meat you would need 105g cure (yes, 17.5g / kg) and 195g Salt

With the 6% nitrite then for the 6 kg brine/meat you would need 15.8g cure and 284g Salt

 

Are you certain that you want 5% salt? That will be quite salty for most peoples tastes.


Edited by Wade - 2/5/17 at 2:43am
post #58 of 62

Bare in mind though that curing is not an exact science, and although you are calculating a theoretical equilibrium of 156 ppm nitrite - this is actually the maximum ppm that you will achieve rather than the actual ppm. The cure enters the meat by diffusion (not osmosis as is sometimes quoted) and will over time diffuse throughout the fluids in the meat. You cannot actually be certain how much enters the individual muscle cells (and different parts of the meat will absorb different amounts) but it is easier for us to assume that full equilibrium is reached when doing the calculations. When brining meat with the skin on this is attempted to be taken into account by making an allowance in the calculation for the assumed weight of the skin.

 

With your calculation, once equilibrium is reached you can be confidant that the final ppm will not exceed 156 - and it is likely to be rather less than this. Do not be alarmed by this though as there is a lot of safely margin built into these calculations.

post #59 of 62

Hi Wade

 

Firstly, many thanks for your prompt and informed response. Sorry to hear that DDF may not be well.

 

Yes, I am probably not clear on what I am doing because I am not sure what I am doing!

 

Basically, I started making simple hams with the 0.9% cure and was using a dry rub at 17.75 gms per kg and then adjusting for salt and sugar (basically 1 imperial TBS salt and 2 TBS sugar. The results were fine.

 

As always, more interest and more impatience led me to attempt injecting and this is where the mess started. I have not had much success and seem to end up with "patchy" joints instead of a constant colour in the joint.

 

I am adding water plus meat, then using DDF's calculator (I am using a 6% cure here which is close to 6.25), pumping the meat and then placing inthe brine for say 5 to 7 days.

 

What I am trying to acheive I suppose is a quicker method using the injector/pump approach, but am not getting great results even after leaving in the brine for 7 days. It is almost as if the cure is too weak, but I do not want to overshoot here.

 

I do not know what the poickup rate is and in your first post you mention 10 times strength. Am I doing something wrong or missing something.

 

PS. I have also been given an Australian cure, which just to confuse the issue is at 1.52 % nitrite and states green pump 15% 5.0 kg cure to 45 litre of water.....oh boy!

 

Without being a pain, any additional info you could provide would be gratefully accepted!

post #60 of 62

It is all about getting the required concentration of Nitrite and salt into the meat. For a given weight of meat that will always be the same amount of Nitrite but it can be delivered in different ways.

 

When injecting it is usual to weigh out the required amount of cure to give the desired ppm for the mass of meat and then dissolve it in a little water (~10% of the meat mass). This is then all injected evenly throughout the meat and time is allowed for it to diffuse evenly.

 

When immersion brining the amount of cure is calculated so that it is initially a little too strong in the water alone but as it diffuses throughout the meat mass it reaches equilibrium so that to the both brine and meat end up with approximately the final desired ppm. You can speed this up (and with larger pieces of meat or bone-in meat this is desirable) by injecting some of the brine into the centre of the meat mass and close to any bone. Time still needs to be allowed for the injected and external brines to reach equilibrium.

 

The 10% pickup that was being discussed previously in the thread (and in a spin off thread) was around some possible unfortunate wording in the Processing Inspectors Calculation Handbook where it seemed to suggest that an injection strength brine could be used as an immersion brine. This is where the discussion started to talk about if the meat increased by 10% was that the same as a 10% take up of the cure. I later questioned this with the FSIS directly and they confirmed that some of the information in the handbook was quite old and that the original compliers and their research notes are no longer around to question some of the content. He said though that the wording here did appear to be unfortunate.

I therefore tested this out myself and used a standard equilibrium cure (POPS cure) and the injection strength cure from DDF where the meat weight increased by 10%. 

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/181560/immersion-bacon-curing-lab-test-results

After lab testing the samples for Nitrite, with the immersion cure the final PPM of Nitrite was roughly where we expected it to be, whereas the injection strength Nitrite the residual Nitrite levels were considerably higher than even the permitted ingoing levels.

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