What bones do you use for Beef and Pork Stock?

diggingdogfarm · Mar 9, 2015

fpmich said:
I imagine your way will work just as well as cooking first for a long time, to get everything from bones.
I also imagine the liquid will still leach out the bones further as they set a few months on the shelf. But... when you open and use, you have to strain them, add veggies and seasonings and cook some more, to get where you want the stock to taste.

My old way, is to do all that first,... then can.
Then, when you open a jar, it's already seasoned to taste and has the veggie nutrients in it. My old way is great if you know you want a distinct chicken soup type flavor. (which I usually do)

Your way, leaves you more options for use, as it is very clear, and without Sage and Tumeric and veggies flavors. I think I will can a few using your method. There are times you don't want that strong chicken flavor.

I've learned something new! That's why I love these forums.

Just to be clear, the batch pictured was only flavored with onion because it was intended for a very specific purpose.
Usual batches have more added aromatics and seasonings.
The initial stock was made in a pressure cooker with water just covering the bones so the final stock definitely has strong chicken flavor....the intensity of the flavor can be adjusted as preferred.

FWIW, Ball/Kerr usually addresses issues with a dollars-off coupon.

fpmich · Mar 10, 2015

Thanks for clarifying that Martin. (pardon the pun)

I won't worry about contacting Ball/Keer. I'm sure they have lots of feedback on this. And I am not bad mouthing them either.

Just a hint to never use lids that came with jars. With their boxed lids, I have never had a problem. They are packed more securely during transport and don't take the abuse the jars do during travel. They only put the rings and lids on the jars to strengthen them during transport. Makes sense, but they really should put a warning on the jar cases.

Welshrarebit,

I didn't ignore your post. I just wasn't sure what the heck a "raft" was. Did a little research on consomme, and learned about the raft thing.

Actually I didn't know what a consomme was either. I've had it, just didn't know what it was. LOL

It certainly wasn't something I learned about growing up. With 8 kids, mom didn't have time to worry about clear stock. Just feed her flock.

I do have a question on that process though. Should you season with salt and pepper during the process, or after rafting? I've read both ways, but some say seasoning after the process will cloud the broth. Signed; Confused in Michigan. LOL

Good Grief! I am tired of canning stock. Last couple of weeks or so that is all I've been doing. Several cases of beef, chicken, turkey, and ham.

But darn it, now I have to try clarifying your way, as well as DiggingDog's canning bones.

I love spending time on food. That is how I send love to various people.

Maybe I was a Jewish mother in a previous life?

welshrarebit · Mar 10, 2015

fpmich said:
Welshrarebit,
I didn't ignore your post. I just wasn't sure what the heck a "raft" was. Did a little research on consomme, and learned about the raft thing.
Actually I didn't know what a consomme was either. I've had it, just didn't know what it was. LOL
It certainly wasn't something I learned about growing up. With 8 kids, mom didn't have time to worry about clear stock. Just feed her flock.

I do have a question on that process though. Should you season with salt and pepper during the process, or after rafting? I've read both ways, but some say seasoning after the process will cloud the broth. Signed; Confused in Michigan. LOL

Good Grief! I am tired of canning stock. Last couple of weeks or so that is all I've been doing. Several cases of beef, chicken, turkey, and ham.

But darn it, now I have to try clarifying your way, as well as DiggingDog's canning bones.

I love spending time on food. That is how I send love to various people.
Maybe I was a Jewish mother in a previous life?

Make the soup like you usually would, if double stock do it twice. Yes you'd do your seasoning before you build the raft.

A raft is some whipped egg whites with mirepoix. Put the vegetables thru a buffalo chopper or food processor to cut them up really small. You could also add some lean protein in with the raft for extra flavor but isn't absolutely vital. You won't need bouquet garni at this stage all if those flavors should already be in the soup. The trick to the clarification process is to use a pot with a thick base so all the heat will be distributed evenly.

Another trick I've learned is when you get your raft floating gently scoop out a hole in the middle of it. You can then put a chinois, fine screened China cap, in that hole when it's time to take the clear soup out.

The best consommé I've ever had was an Asian style oxtail one... This was before oxtail got crazy expensive!

fpmich · Mar 11, 2015

Questions, questions, questions!

1. Could I just open a couple jars of broth that I just canned up, and use that as a 1st test, of trying my hand at the clarifying process?

2. Other than time involved, is it just as easy/difficult to do a large pot as it is a smaller pot?

3. Thickness of raft. How thick do you want it to be once it rises and forms? 1/4" 1/2" 3/4 1" or thicker? Or does size matter?

     I assume I would then judge amount of mixture as I am mixing it, to estimate how thick it would be for size of pot.

4. If I was making a large pot, could I use a food grade hose and siphon it off from the bottom without disturbing the raft?

     I was thinking that may eliminate the need for fine screen or coffee filter.

5. Does using a narrow stock pot, have any advantage over a wider normal cooking pot?

6. For double stock, you said:  "Make the soup like you usually would, if double stock do it twice."

     Do you mean make stock, strain, and use that stock to make next batch?  Should I use fresh bones then, or continue with 1st bones?

Thanks for your input and help.

I appreciate it very much.

welshrarebit · Mar 11, 2015

fpmich said:
Questions, questions, questions!

1. Could I just open a couple jars of broth that I just canned up, and use that as a 1st test, of trying my hand at the clarifying process?

2. Other than time involved, is it just as easy/difficult to do a large pot as it is a smaller pot?

3. Thickness of raft. How thick do you want it to be once it rises and forms? 1/4" 1/2" 3/4 1" or thicker? Or does size matter? :biggrin:
     I assume I would then judge amount of mixture as I am mixing it, to estimate how thick it would be for size of pot.

4. If I was making a large pot, could I use a food grade hose and siphon it off from the bottom without disturbing the raft?
     I was thinking that may eliminate the need for fine screen or coffee filter.

5. Does using a narrow stock pot, have any advantage over a wider normal cooking pot?

6. For double stock, you said:  "Make the soup like you usually would, if double stock do it twice."
     Do you mean make stock, strain, and use that stock to make next batch?  Should I use fresh bones then, or continue with 1st bones?

Thanks for your input and help.
I appreciate it very much.

1) yes that would be fine.

2) the size of the pot isn't as important as having one with a thick bottom to evenly distribute the heat!

3) the size of the raft will be determined by what else you put in there besides egg whites. If you add mirepoix it'll be thicker and if you add mirepoix and some ground up lean protien it'll be thicker again. It depends on how much flavor you want to end up with. I've done it all three ways.

4) I would highly recommend not doing it this way! Most of the junk in the stock will be caught by the raft and be pulled to the top. But there will probably a little stuff at the bottom that you don't want as well. I have heard of chefs that will cook the consommé until the raft sinks but I've never done this and wouldn't want to try this after all that effort getting to that point and ending having to throw it out if it didn't work.

If you don't have a fine mesh screen strainer I'd just scoop it out one ladle at a time thru the hole you opened up in the middle of your raft as it cooks. You'd put that thru some cheese cloth that's been folder over a bunch of times. Always be gentle with this broth you don't want to agitate it once it's clarified; you want the raft to hold together!

5) you'd get more return out of a narrower pot but the bottom of the pot is the most important part! If you have a thick bottom pot that is narrower go for it...

6) double stock: make a stock, strain and add that to a new pot of bones, mirepoix and bouquet garni. As in all cooking it's important to know what you want to end up with. If after the first stock is made and you have enough pepper taste don't put anymore of that. But everything else should be okay...

If you strain out your old stock and use the old bones and stuff and add fresh water and bring that to a boil and strain that is called a remoulage. That can be used as a braising liquid: osso bucco, pot roast, beef stew kind of stuff where you'll have all the meat and veg and aromatics in the pot and you'll get a better flavor than adding water and you'll be able to save your stock for other stuff.,, I wouldn't do this with chicken but beef or veal I always would do this!

zeroids7 · Mar 11, 2015

I use pork knuckles. For chicken, use the neck and the feet. It's true that if you want deeper flavor, roast these bones first before you boil them. Don't forget the herbs (thyme/bayleaf), they add aroma. Roast the bones with onion, celery, carrots until caramelized. Boil them using cold water until reduced in half. Strain and store in your fridge. Fresh is best and they come in handy for your cooking needs.

p1020687.jpg

zeroids7
Mar 11, 2015

Beef-Stock-Bones-in-Water.jpg

zeroids7
Mar 11, 2015

beef-stock.jpg

zeroids7
Mar 11, 2015

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy

-Zeriods

fpmich · Mar 12, 2015

zeroids7,

Nice looking mix of shank/marrow bones, ox tails & short ribs with the veggies! And I think that one on the right was your pig knuckle?

That is exactly how I roast my stock starters too. Good Stuff!

Thanks again Welsh. I appreciate your patience, help & expertise!

As for thick bottom pots,

I Only have two. One is a 12 qt. narrow tall stock pot, and the other is a 21 qt. canning/stock pot.

I bought a new stove a couple of years ago, with more fire power. It's great for water bath canning, and pressure canning, but it sucks for low simmers. Only has one small burner and that is still too hot for a low simmer even with a heavy bottom pot. Seeing as I don't have a gas  range tamer, I'm made do with this trick, and it works great.

I use a shallow 1/2" sided cast iron skillet we use for pancakes. Turn it upside down on grate over flame and set pot on it. (I have to let handle drop into next grate to keep it level.)   Walla! Gentle even simmer over entire pot! LOL It works even if pot isn't centered on flame. The cast iron distributes the heat all the way across.   I use that trick for all my stock making now, as well some soups.

I'll discard my siphoning idea then. Unless I only use siphon to middle depth of pot, and ladle the rest into cheese cloth or coffee filters. Maybe?

I know I will screw this up a couple of times while learning, but what the heck?

I won't toss it out if it isn't spoiled. I'll eat anything almost anything. Even if it not very tasty.

Was raised not to throw anything out that could be nutritious, regardless of taste.

My wife says I have the stomach of a goat! LOL

_

If Mods think this is getting off track, then please let me know. I'll go PM.   But I think this is in line with thread content.

Just don't want to step on any toes.

fpmich · Apr 9, 2015

My first consomme attempt turned out, not too bad.

Making stock after first simmering legs and thighs, then removed meat. Add bones & skins back to it, along with a few more veggies.

Cooked over night.

chicken-stock.JPG

fpmich
Apr 9, 2015

Next day I strained stock, and placed in fridge over night

Removed all fat I could get off after overnight in fridge.

Then mixed julienned veggies with ground chicken breast and beaten egg whites. About 7-8 for 8-10 qt. of stock

Placed in fridge after mixing to cool down more for a couple of hours.

Then mixed into cold stock from fridge before adding heat.

Used big restaurant style whisk to mix. Never do that with ground meat! What a mess to clean.!

Use a fork to mix and separate mixture well.

Just beginning the process.

Here the strained, chilled, fat removed stock mixed up cold with very fine julienned mirepoix.

mix-veg-w-stock.JPG

fpmich
Apr 9, 2015

I kept stirring on med high flame for about 30 minutes until it starter to reach a higher temp (about 125*),

Then I occasionally stirred, and let it come to a rolling simmer.

Raft just beginning to form. At this point I quit stirring.

raft-begining.JPG

fpmich
Apr 9, 2015

A few minutes later raft is complete.

raft-complete.JPG

fpmich
Apr 9, 2015

Then carefully moved to smallest burner, and let slow simmer.

Using a spoon I created hole to fit the ladle I would use later for removing.

raft-hole.JPG

fpmich
Apr 9, 2015

I also, every one or two minutes, used a ladle to remove some floating stuff from the hole and poured it over undisturbed raft.

I did this all the way through the 35 - 40 minutes it took, to where I thought it was done filtering.

Ladled into 6 layers of cheese cloth placed into simple colander. Didn't use coffee filter.

Here it is still warm before removing all fats from top. Not much fat left though.

consomme-conplete.JPG

fpmich
Apr 9, 2015

I didn't want to drop a dime on my soup. (What did it ever do to me?) LOL

So I just placed a 40 year old spoon into it. You can see the results, and judge for yourself.

(If you enlarge by clicking on the photo, you'll notice that you can see the scratches and marks on the spoon underneath, so I guess you could probably read the date on a dime too.)

I'm pleased with it, and it was fun to do. If I hadn't used the skin, and added Turmeric, it would've been much more clear.

I drank this bowl to test, and it was awesome! Very chicken flavored. Much more than I expected. I thought it would be weak chicken flavor, but it isn't. Cool!

Welsh - HELP!

Now what do I do with it? Besides fun, and just to see if I could, why did I make it? LOL

fpmich · Apr 9, 2015

Questions:

If I canned cooked chicken & veggie soup, and canned it, would it remain mostly clear, or no? Probably no, but maybe more clear than usual?

If I can it by itself, will it remain as clear?

This was a fun experience!

Thanks Welsh! Now you have to educate me in PM's or another thread on how to use it, and why make it in the 1st place, other than it is pretty. LOL

welshrarebit · Apr 10, 2015

fpmich said:
Questions:

If I canned cooked chicken & veggie soup, and canned it, would it remain mostly clear, or no? Probably no, but maybe more clear than usual?

If I can it by itself, will it remain as clear?

This was a fun experience!

Thanks Welsh! Now you have to educate me in PM's or another thread on how to use it, and why make it in the 1st place, other than it is pretty. LOL

Yes its just a fancy soup... You can garnish it in many different ways and what the garnish is will dictate what you call it. Just don't put in anything that will cloud it up! Brunoise of vegetables is the most common garnish.

The coolest way I've made before is consommé en croute: consommé with some brunoise of veg and then the top of the soup bowl was cover with puff pastry and baked to order.

I worked at a restaurant that made aspic plates for our caviar service. Take some consommé and add unflavored gelatin so when it cools you'll have a solid. You can put in various vegetables inside it before it gets hard and looks very cool.

You can also do the same thing: consommé and gelatin and make a terrine with it...

fpmich · Apr 10, 2015

More questions:

1. Did I do a good job, or just so-so? It was my 1st time, so I have nothing to compare it too,

2. Do you blanch veggies 1st in salted water before adding to soup dish, or do you gently warm them up in the consomme, or just add them raw to hot soup?

3. The gelatin in it with veggies makes me think of head cheese that my parents loved, but I couldn't bring myself to even taste.

     Something about snout, ears and hairs turned me off. LOL

     I imagine I could like your version better though.

     Is it served sliced or cubed in still jelled state for serving, or what?

You can tell I'm NOT a chef, can't you.   But I am interested in learning new things to try.

welshrarebit · Apr 12, 2015

fpmich said:
More questions:

1. Did I do a good job, or just so-so? It was my 1st time, so I have nothing to compare it too,

2. Do you blanch veggies 1st in salted water before adding to soup dish, or do you gently warm them up in the consomme, or just add them raw to hot soup?

3. The gelatin in it with veggies makes me think of head cheese that my parents loved, but I couldn't bring myself to even taste.
     Something about snout, ears and hairs turned me off. LOL
     I imagine I could like your version better though.
     Is it served sliced or cubed in still jelled state for serving, or what?

You can tell I'm NOT a chef, can't you.   But I am interested in learning new things to try.

1) I'd say that looks perfect!

2) yes, blanch in salted water, ice shock and add to soup just before serving.

3) garde manger isn't the strongest side of my culinary background! Head cheese is one of the things that I have have done with this.

bluewhisper · Apr 12, 2015

This morning I strained a stock made from smoked ham bones. The ham was on sale for $1.49/lb so Mr. Cheapo here got the smallest one in the case. I baked it and we cut at it for a few days, then yesterday I stripped the meat off. I simmered the bones for most of the day and the house smelled exactly like it did when Mom did this.

Now the strained stock is chilling and once it's set I'll skim the fat off. I think there's a batch of split-pea soup in my near future.

fpmich · Apr 13, 2015

Thanks for the compliment on my stock consommé, Welsh. I appreciate the feedback.

It was very fun to do, and I got to use up some old eggs that would be too old for frying too.

It makes me happy that I did something right the first time out for a change. LOL

One thing I noticed is that the clarified stock using this method turned out a little thicker than the original stock was, before clarifying. Not quite gelled, but close, when cooled in fridge. That was a pleasant surprise.

I used some of it to make 6 quarts of Chicken a la king starter. And I caned 8 pints of just clear stock. I get some pic's of them and post them tomorrow maybe.

BlueWhisper - Someone asked back in this same thread, I think it was, why, and what, would I ever make ham stock for.

Seems like you know the answers to that question. LOL

welshrarebit · Apr 13, 2015

I went into work today and in the cold Bain Marie where two pots labeled "oriental consome," they are probably for a banquet tomorrow but I'm thinking if she can't spell it... They hadn't been clarified yet.

Ham stock also makes one of our local favorite soups: Portuguese bean soup!!! I usually use my smoked turkey bones at home to make this.

fpmich · Apr 14, 2015

We use ham stock for peas, beans, scalloped potato's, and anything else you want that flavor in. It don't take much to flavor a pot or dish.

Ha Ha @ "If they can't spell it..." comment. Sounds like I wrote that sign. LOL

I didn't get any pic's today of canned product, and guess it isn't needed really.

I was just was going to show that it did indeed, stay 'perfectly clear' after canning.

And even the a la king mix, with chicken in it remained quite clear, even with the meat added. That surprised me.

Other than being pretty to use for fancy dishes, that I know nothing about, I did notice one important thing about the consommé.

So did my wife, even though I didn't say a thing to her about it. And that was the texture/feel (?) or whatever.

The flavors were the same as my usual broth or stocks. But it felt very smooth to me when tasting, by spoon or by sipping from a cup.

My wife commented that it tasted like regular, but felt silky, or velvety on her tongue and mouth.

Does that make any sense, or is it just us.

What bones do you use for Beef and Pork Stock?

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