?? Confused about CURES ??

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Hope it turns out good for ya- the trial and error is the part I like most...

Hey, have you ever heard of taking a piece of Salmon and a piece of cheese and wrapping it up and setting something heavy on it to smash it down,while in the fridge? my friend does his like that and calls it something, I dunno, I just eat it... really good..
 
I did another taste test today and it had mellowed pretty well.  A tad too salty, but not bad.  Citrus flavor is now just a hint.  Could've used more sweet.  I think maybe the Splenda thing is throwing that off a bit.  I'm new to using it.  It says 1 to 1 with sugar, but I don't know about that.  Plus when I brine fowl for baking I always just went with 1 to 1 salt and sugar.

This fish is definitely a little too dry for most people I think.  I don't mind it so much, but I'm think my sis will.  Of course some, store bought smoked fish has been even drier and much more salty than this is.  So if it don't meet her approval, she can smoke her own.  LOL  Actually she can't do that now, so I am trying to make the best I can for her.  I may have to only give her a piece or two of this one, and then give her another batch when/if it turns out right.

I am very thankful that my son and wife had such good success this year, and is willing to let me experiment and learn with some of it.

Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought I would be experimenting 3-4 filets at a time.  I wish he would have frozen them separately.  Then when I screwed up it wouldn't be on such a big batch. But at least I'm getting a chance to learn my temps, times, fire tending, brining and etc. in a much shorted time frame than if I only tried to do one filet a time or a year.  I've been having a ball learning!

PigBark, that sound interesting.  I imagine a soft cheese, like goat cheese, or Harvati's would work?  Or does he use  something cheddar or Jack?
 
Mr. T  You suggested a simple brine, so I've done one.

I used your ration of water sugar and salt. 1/2 c. + 2 c. sugar per quart. (4 to 1 sugar to salt)

I finished up my TQ with this.

Here is what I mixed.

2 c. TQ salt

1 gal. water

8 c. Brown sugar.  (light brown tho' -- My Wife 
hit.gif
,... Sheesh!)

 I also substituted 1 3/4 c. Real Maple Syrup (all I had left), for the same amount of sugar, & I had to use 1/2 c. Slpenda to get ratio of sugar to salt.

5 or 6 Bay leaves.  I'm out now.  Your recipe would have used 16 for a gal. of brine.  Man!  I ran out of everything today!  LOL

I only gave a few shakes of garlic powder into it instead of 4 Tbsp. because it just bought, and was potent.

That's it.  No citrus, no pepper, no spice.   Nothing else.

Boiled water, salt, and bay leaves & let cool a little bit, then added the rest and stirred until dissolved completely & let stand for an hour.  Then cooled in sink of cold water and placed in fridge until brine was 45*  It will finally be 38*-40* in fridge while finishing brining.

I'm still "VERY" nervous about the salt and sugar amounts, because I'm experimenting on 3-4 whole salmon fillets at a time.

Because of some heath pain/issues right now I may not get to smoke for 2-3 day or more, I cut fillets in chunks about 8"-10" long x however wide it was, because I figure the larger pieces may take longer to absorb brine than the smaller pieces I usually do, and maybe not get too salty.  I will take tail (thinner sections) out of brine at 12 hours or so.  Wrap in saran wrap until I take out the larger hunks.  Then unwrap & dry them in fridge on racks at same time.

Plan on smoking in pre-heated CG to 225*-235* or so, right from the start until done at 145*  Trying to avoid too dry a fish.

I also will try to smoke larger pieces this time, rather than portion before smoking.  I'm hoping that will cut down on the dryness that I have been experiencing.  I will cut into portions after smoking.  Does this make any sense at all to anyone?
 
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Separate your pieces into like sizes large and small then smoke separately.  This will keep you from having to open the smoker to remove the smaller pieces while leaving the larger ones in.  Remember to start backing off on the heat when the salmon reaches 140°.

Good luck and have fun.  Sounds like you are already.

Tom
 
Frank I think he uses a cream cheese..

as far as taste goes, don't be scared of the salt/sugr ratio you have... a lot of rubs start with a salt/sugar  combination  3 Tbls sugar to 1 tbls  salt for balance up to 6 or more for that candy sweet flavor...
 
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HA HA!   It seems I've have managed to hijacked my own thread, from cure questions, to a fish smoking thread. 

(Probably won't be the last time I do something like this.)

I brined the thinner pieces for 12 hours, and thick portions for 18 hours in above posted brine.

Rinsed well, soaked for an hour or so, and put them in zip bags in very bottom crisper drawer of fridge, until I am able to move around enough, to smoke them in 2 or 3 days. (hopefully)  Temp in crisper is about 36*-39*

So back to cures... for tonight anyway.

Wondering....

Now that I have used correct amounts of cure in my fish brine,

1.  Do I still have to abide by the 40*/140*/4 hour rule, and still cook to 145*  IT temp?

2.  Or can I smoke at lower temps and quit when fish flakes to my liking, regardless of IT temp & time?

3.  Does using correct amount of cure  mean it will last much longer at 40* in fridge, or for a few hours @ ambient temps?

Please,

no more charts and formula's for now.  Just smoker to smoker talk.  Straight forward, person to person OK?  :)

I barely graduated high school.  LOL.  I'm still reading links & charts, etc. and trying to understand, but they often are difficult to understand.  ppm?  How in the heck can I figure that in my kitchen?  Grams? forget it, I never learned metric.  Weight? same thing, forget it.  No scale.  I use cups, TBS and tsp.  Only ounce I use, is liquid ounces, and that is usually in a drink.

That's why I'm using a wet brine. Gal. Cup. TBS. tsp.  I can do fractions somewhat.  LOL

------------------------

And if you think of it, and believe, say a short prayer that my pain will resolve soon.
 
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you still have to fully cook the fish... ...you don't wanna know what Mortons guide says on temp for Salmon, 160* for 30 minutes- kill it dead and dry it out LOl..Im sure they are being on the super safe side.

the 40 140 4 is a safety guideline that I have only heard  for Poultry until I came here... Ill be honest, im not up to date on it enough to say one way or the other.. On some meats it makes no sense to me because the finish temp is over 158* which is the instantaneous kill it dead temp... on lower temp stuff like Bacon that ya take to 145 or there about, you still end up frying it on the stove...

I do keep it in the back of my mind on Pork Loin, I been making a lot of them here lately.. the way I do it I try to pull it rite out of the fridge and have it on the smoker in 10 to 15 minutes.. its been taking me rite at 3.5 hrs to cook a half Loin 145* to 148* it gives me 30 mins extra,, my fridge is set around 36* to 38*... that's the only cut I watch, I never got sick in the past before I even heard of it to be honest... .... ???? ....
 
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See?   THAT'S what I don't get, PigBark.

Why use cure, if you have to take it to same temp in same time?  Makes no sense to me.  Those temps are no different than cooking on stove or oven.

I think I understand that cure #1 (nitrite) is quick acting, and cure #2 (nitrate) is slow acting.

I can understand using cure #2 for air drying or aging meat for long times.

But what the heck is the reason of cure #1,  if same time and temps, is same as just cooking fish or meats to temps?

Still  Confused about CURES ??
 
  
Please,

no more charts and formula's for now.  Just smoker to smoker talk.  Straight forward, person to person OK?  :)

I barely graduated high school.  LOL.  I'm still reading links & charts, etc. and trying to understand, but they often are difficult to understand.  ppm?  How in the heck can I figure that in my kitchen?  Grams? forget it, I never learned metric.  Weight? same thing, forget it.  No scale.  I use cups, TBS and tsp.  Only ounce I use, is liquid ounces, and that is usually in a drink.

That's why I'm using a wet brine. Gal. Cup. TBS. tsp.  I can do fractions somewhat.  LOL

------------------------

And if you think of it, and believe, say a short prayer that my pain will resolve soon.
fpmich,

When you get tired of all the hassle, go below to "Smoked Salmon" in my Signature. No charts, no links, no PPMs, no grams, no metric crap. Just plain old Made in USA ingredient list, and easy to follow step by step instructions & suggestions. Try it---Everyone who tried it loves it.

And a prayer sent to you for some back pain relief.

Bear
 
 
See?   THAT'S what I don't get, PigBark.

Why use cure, if you have to take it to same temp in same time?  Makes no sense to me.  Those temps are no different than cooking on stove or oven.

I think I understand that cure #1 (nitrite) is quick acting, and cure #2 (nitrate) is slow acting.

I can understand using cure #2 for air drying or aging meat for long times.

But what the heck is the reason of cure #1,  if same time and temps, is same as just cooking fish or meats to temps?

Still  Confused about CURES ??
I totally understand...
 
 
See?   THAT'S what I don't get, PigBark.

Why use cure, if you have to take it to same temp in same time?  Makes no sense to me.  Those temps are no different than cooking on stove or oven.

I think I understand that cure #1 (nitrite) is quick acting, and cure #2 (nitrate) is slow acting.

I can understand using cure #2 for air drying or aging meat for long times.

But what the heck is the reason of cure #1,  if same time and temps, is same as just cooking fish or meats to temps?

Still  Confused about CURES ??
Frank, afternoon.......  Using cure is a safety measure...  When smoking meats, the oxygen depleted atmosphere, that is between 40 and 240 degrees is a perfect environment to grow botulism....  cure kills botulism.....  above 240, the temp kills botulism spores....   

In your oven in the kitchen, the food is not in an oxygen depleted atmosphere......   

We do this curing stuff for a good reason and try to pass on the info for educational purposes....  safety is number one....   

We are here to help.....     

Dave
 
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Frank, afternoon.......  Using cure is a safety measure...  When smoking meats, the oxygen depleted atmosphere, that is between 40 and 240 degrees is a perfect environment to grow botulism....  cure kills botulism.....  above 240, the temp kills botulism spores....   

In your oven in the kitchen, the food is not in an oxygen depleted atmosphere......   

We do this curing stuff for a good reason and try to pass on the info for educational purposes....  safety is number one....   

We are here to help.....     

Dave
Hi Dave!!

I think one of your fingers misspoke. That would be between 40* and 140*.

Bear
 
 
 
Frank, afternoon.......  Using cure is a safety measure...  When smoking meats, the oxygen depleted atmosphere, that is between 40 and 240 degrees is a perfect environment to grow botulism....  cure kills botulism.....  above 240, the temp kills botulism spores....    

In your oven in the kitchen, the food is not in an oxygen depleted atmosphere......   

We do this curing stuff for a good reason and try to pass on the info for educational purposes....  safety is number one....   

We are here to help.....     

Dave
Hi Dave!!

I think one of your fingers misspoke. That would be between 40* and 140*.

Bear
Bear, evening......  I think you did not read my post......   Botulism spores grow while botulism is active....  it is active to about 180 ish degrees... not exactly sure about that temp......  but........ the spores are not killed until the temp of 240 deg F.....  The temp you pressure cook food at.... 

If the botulism is growing, it could me leaving spores......    All of this is in an oxygen reduced environment.......   If the spores are active, they could continue to grow while the food cools to refer temp or something like that.....  especially if you wrap the meat in aluminum foil and put it in an insulated box to keep warm.....   aluminum foil, if wrapped tightly on meat, is air tight and botulism can grow....    Folks have died from baked potatoes wrapped in foil and kept warm until serving time....     I'm not saying it will happen, but the very small possibility is there..... 

I'll probably get banned for pointing out this error, in the public forum.....    But.....  I did not want folks to have a misconceived idea about food safety.....  After all, food safety is number 1...... 

See ya later........  Dave
 
OK  We're making some progress I think.

So cure #1 or TQ only keeps botulism chances low while cooking, but still have to cook to safe temps within 4 hours.

That answers these 2 questions.
1.  Do I still have to abide by the 40*/140*/4 hour rule, and still cook to 145*  IT temp?

2.  Or can I smoke at lower temps and quit when fish flakes to my liking, regardless of IT temp & time?
Still need answer to this question
3.  Does using correct amount of cure, mean it will last much longer at 40* in fridge, or for a few hours @ ambient temps?
And it brings up a new question for me.

4.  Why is "cold smoking" under 90* safe for hours, or days, safe, with, or without a cure, other than salt/sugar, but hot smoking longer than four hours before it reaches  IT of 140*, is not?

I appreciate the patience and efforts you have all made, in trying to educate a total newbie.

I must seem pretty dense to you all, and I am sometimes.  But when I DO understand something fully in my mind, then it stays with me.

It just takes a lot of repetition and explainions to get me there sometimes.  I apologize to all of you for that.  I really do appreciate your kindness in helping.
 
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OK  We're making some progress I think.

So cure #1 or TQ only keeps botulism chances low while cooking, but still have to cook to safe temps within 4 hours.

That answers these 2 questions.
  Cured meat needs to be cooked to a safe temp to kill pathogens that may be present, it does not need to be done within the 4 hour time like uncured meat.

Chuck
 
 
  Cured meat needs to be cooked to a safe temp to kill pathogens that may be present, it does not need to be done within the 4 hour time like uncured meat.

Chuck
AHHH!....  So more progress on my questions.

If cured properly to time and strength, then longer time can be taken, but IT still has to reach recommended safe temps.  Right?
 
Bear,

I noticed in your recipe that  you didn't use "any" cure #1 or TQ,  but 1/2 cup salt, plus 6 Oz. to 2 qt. liquid, (1 c. salt, plus 12 oz. soy to gallon)

(I don't know how much salt in in soy sauce, but I'll assume the two together equals 1 1/4 -1 1/2 c. salt combined)

And you've slowly reached 134* IT at the 3 1/2 hour mark, then  to take them off when they reach 145*.  So far so good.

Except... you are using much less salty brine than I was told to use,  and you say "How long this takes doesn't matter,  just so they go to 145* IT".

What am I missing, or not picking up on?  It seems opposite to all I've been told.

It's easy for me to be confused.  This can't be that hard.  Millions of people smoke fish at home, and they don't all have internet.  LOL
 
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Bear, evening......  I think you did not read my post......   Botulism spores grow while botulism is active....  it is active to about 180 ish degrees... not exactly sure about that temp......  but........ the spores are not killed until the temp of 240 deg F.....  The temp you pressure cook food at.... 

If the botulism is growing, it could me leaving spores......    All of this is in an oxygen reduced environment.......   If the spores are active, they could continue to grow while the food cools to refer temp or something like that.....  especially if you wrap the meat in aluminum foil and put it in an insulated box to keep warm.....   aluminum foil, if wrapped tightly on meat, is air tight and botulism can grow....    Folks have died from baked potatoes wrapped in foil and kept warm until serving time....     I'm not saying it will happen, but the very small possibility is there..... 

I'll probably get banned for pointing out this error, in the public forum.....    But.....  I did not want folks to have a misconceived idea about food safety.....  After all, food safety is number 1...... 

See ya later........  Dave
OK, I didn't read yours right. I took it as the normal 40* to 140* in 4 hours rule. The 240* your talking about is over my head.

Bear
 
 
Bear,

I noticed in your recipe that  you didn't use "any" cure #1 or TQ,  but 1/2 cup salt, plus 6 Oz. to 2 qt. liquid, (1 c. salt, plus 12 oz. soy to gallon)

(I don't know how much salt in in soy sauce, but I'll assume the two together equals 1 1/4 -1 1/2 c. salt combined)

And you've slowly reached 134* IT at the 3 1/2 hour mark, then  to take them off when they reach 145*.  So far so good.

Except... you are using much less salty brine than I was told to use,  and you say "How long this takes doesn't matter,  just so they go to 145* IT".  Good question. I can see how this could be confusing. I believe the actual rule is something like "from 39* to 135* in no longer than 3 1/2 hours", and that would be with no salt at all. Here we round it off to "from 40* to 140* in no longer than 4 hours", to make it easier to remember. I also said when I hit 134* at 3 1/2 hours, I bumped the heat up to 200*, so I'm sure that one piece gets to 135* in a very short time, and that was the thickest piece of all the pieces. All the rest of the pieces would be well over 135* by that time. My point was it doesn't matter how long it takes to get from 134*/135* to 145*, but it must get to 145*.

What am I missing, or not picking up on?  It seems opposite to all I've been told. The above should explain it better for you.

It's easy for me to be confused.  This can't be that hard.  Millions of people smoke fish at home, and they don't all have internet.  LOL

Most of my technique came from numerous University sites. I don't remember which ones, because it was 4 years ago, but if I had to I could find a couple of them.
Bear
 
Thanks guys for the helpful posts about the low Oxygen levels and cured and uncured meats with times provided.. It makes it easier to understand why cures are used and when they are actually needed..
 
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