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Cold Smoking without preservatives. ( nitrates, pink salt etc ) - Page 2  

post #21 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by m-fine View Post

I am not ignoring the suggestions from the CDC, FDA, microbiologists, or others whose suggestions are based on science and fact.

More facts, 90% of the cases of food born botulism in the US are from improperly preserved foods (stink fin and home canning) which we are not talking about. Most of the remaining average of 2.5 cases a year (in a country over 300 million) are from sausage.

Science tells us the risk comes from bacteria plus moisture and a lack of oxygen and ground meat mixes the surface bacteria into the middle with moisture and shoving into a casing provides the low oxygen. Poking a raw hunk of meat to inject or stick in a temp probe can also put bacteria into an anaerobic condition inside the meat. For the big hunks we are hot smoking, the 40-140-4 rule protects us. Heating hot enough for long enough, such as 85c for 5 minutes provides another layer of protection. With sausage, if you cold smoke between 70-90f you are putting it at the ideal temp for max bacteria growth. If you then dry the sausage and eat it raw, or insufficiently cook it later, there is a danger you or your family will be one of the 2.5 cases per year. The recommendation to add nitrate or nitrite to sausage is good advice to eliminate this small but potentially deadly risk (under 5%). That is based on science.

When you are talking about a solid piece of pork belly that will be sliced and cooked well above 185f (85c) for 5 minutes you are introducing myth and hysteria that contradicts the advice from the CDC and FDA. The uncurred bacon needs to be treated just like raw poultry or any raw meat. Maintain safe handling to avoid cross contamination and fully cook it and the experts with real PHD's and not Internet forum degrees tell us it is safe. Eat it raw or rare and there is a very very small danger from the surface bacteria getting anaerobic conditions in the smoker or more likely if you vacuum seal after the smoke. (Where are the all caps warnings about vacuum sealing?) If you like your bacon rare or raw, nitrate cure is good advice. Otherwise, cook it to 185 and be safe.

When 450 people die per year from salmonella and botulism in meats kills at a rate of 1 person per decade we are looking at a risk ratio of 4500:1. Funny I don't see 4500 times as many all caps warnings and people getting told not to feed poulltry to innocent guests in every chicken thread. Perspective and balance based on facts might be in order here.





The OP was asking about COLD smoking..... why are you off on some tangent not associated with the question.... head-wall.gif AND.... most foods are not cooked to 180 degrees...... and botulism bacteria and spores are found everywhere.....

You "sound" like the typical follower of Saul Alinsky......
post #22 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicsmoke View Post

You won't win this fight. I've seen botulism brought up here in threads about smoked cheese (dry hard cheese) or 38F smoking .

History is meaningless, people who have been doing this for centuries got lucky or used nitrates without knowing (sarcasm ofcourse).

You never heard about the great cheese botulism epidemic of the 1860's that killed thousands? Oh that's right, it never happened.
post #23 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveOmak View Post

The OP was asking about COLD smoking..... why are you off on some tangent not associated with the question.... head-wall.gif AND.... most foods are not cooked to 180 degrees...... and botulism bacteria and spores are found everywhere.....

You "sound" like the typical follower of Saul Alinsky......

One would presume he was then going to cook the bacon before eating it. Have you ever eaten cold smoked bacon raw? And yes, frying bacon slices to any form of crispiness will heat it up enough to destroy the toxin. Cold smoking a solid hunk for a few hours will not create enough toxin to survive frying over 185 no matter how often and how loud you proclaim it will.

If we are going to go with personally allusions, you sound like the typical believer in alien invasions. You are one of the few who are aware of this new super botulism strain from Mars, that the CDC never heard of or keeps secret, that can survive conditions know to render all of the other know strains safe.

Personally I go with science over myth and faith. I know I won't convince those who choose blind faith, but anyone else reading this can verify the facts I mentioned from reputable government agency web sites and so forth. No need to trust me or the blind faith crowd, look it up yourself. To quote the X-files, "the truth is out there."
post #24 of 27
This is the last I'll have to say about this.
Again, I recommend safe practice because there's no good reason to to take unnecessary risks.
Since other pathogens have been introduced into this discussion (spoilage organisms are another cause for concern as well) it's important to note that some pathogens produce toxins that are extremely resistant to heat (among several other concerns)...so you may not always be able to make something safe by cooking the hell out of it.

"The enterotoxin produced by S. aureus is a heat-stable protein, which survives heating
at 100 °C (212 °F) for 30 – 700 minutes."


Best of luck to all!!!!


~Martin
Edited by DiggingDogFarm - 6/25/14 at 9:29am
post #25 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by m-fine View Post


If we are going to go with personally allusions, you sound like the typical believer in alien invasions. You are one of the few who are aware of this new super botulism strain from Mars, that the CDC never heard of or keeps secret, that can survive conditions know to render all of the other know strains safe.









On the subject of the botulism strain from Mars........


The toxin is the protein, botulinum toxin produced under anaerobic conditions (where there is no oxygen) by the bacterium Clostridium botulinum.

Clostridium botulinum is a large anaerobic Gram-positive bacillus that forms subterminal endospores.[12]

There are eight serological varieties of the bacterium denoted by the letters A to H. The toxin from all of these acts in the same way and produces similar symptoms: the motor nerve endings are prevented from releasing acetylcholine, causing flaccid paralysis and symptoms of blurred vision, ptosis, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea and/or constipation, cramps, and respiratory difficulty.

Botulinum toxin is broken into 8 neurotoxins (labeled as types A, B, C [C1, C2], D, E, F, G & H), which are antigenically and serologically distinct but structurally similar. Human botulism is caused mainly by types A, B, E, and (rarely) F. Types C and D cause toxicity only in other animals.[13]

In October 2013, scientists released news of the discovery of type H, the first new botulism neurotoxin found in forty years. However, further information about type H has not been disclosed because of its potential for abuse as a lethal bioweapon and lack of a known antitoxin.[14]
post #26 of 27

I have seen enough of this thread the bottom line is SMF recommends USDA/ FDA approved methods and highly suggest following them. Can other ways work MAYBE but we recommend approved methods for food safety and liability reasons.

 

THIS THREAD IS NOW CLOSED...........Except I had to add one more post


Edited by Pineywoods - 7/1/14 at 1:48pm
post #27 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by m-fine View Post

Botulism is nasty stuff and cold smoking uncurred bacon can lead to toxins in the meat BUT the bacteria and toxins will be destroyed by cooking the bacon to 85c or 185f for at least 5 minutes. I gues it depends on what you do with the bacon after the cold smoke, but if you fry it and like it moderately crisp you will be way hotter for longer so is there a safety issue with uncurred bacon as long as you fully cook it later? That aside, I don't think it would taste like bacon.

 

 

So if the above is fact why would they say this when sent an email asking about the subject??

 

Original Message


From: [emailforms@cdc.gov]
Sent: 6/27/2014 5:10 PM
To: cdcinfo@cdc.gov
Subject: CDC-INFO: Inquiry

Subject: Botulism: Control Measures Overview for Clinicians

Other: [othersubject]

From: General Public

Email Address: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Your Question: In the above mentioned "overview"... ?Despite its extreme potency, botulinum toxin is easily destroyed. Heating to an internal temperature of 85°C for at least 5 minutes will decontaminate affected food or drink. ....
Does this treatment of botulinium infected food, make it safe for human consumption...

Thanks for your time.... xxxxxxx xxxxxxx

Optional Information

Contact: [name], [title], [companyorganization]


ref:_00DU0YCBU._500U0CnQkl:ref

 

 

Reply below

 

 

cdcinfo@cdc.gov


Thank you for your inquiry to CDC-INFO. Your request for information on botulism control measures was forwarded to subject-matter experts at the CDC. We hope you find their response helpful.

Hello,
This treatment does inactivate any pre-formed toxin in food; however, due to the serious nature of botulism, if you have reason to believe a food could be contaminated you should not eat it.

Regards,
Centers for Diseases Control and Prevention

Links to nonfederal organizations are provided as a service. Links are not an endorsement of these organizations or their programs by CDC or the federal government. CDC is not responsible for the content of organization websites found at these links.

Thank you for contacting CDC-INFO. For more information, please call 1-800-CDC-INFO (800-232-4636), visit www.cdc.gov and click on “Contact CDC-INFO,” or go to www.cdc.gov/info. This e-mail is being sent from an unmonitored mailbox and CDC-INFO will not respond. If you have questions or comments, please send them via our online form at www.cdc.gov/info.

CDC-INFO is a service of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR). This service is provided by Verizon and its subcontractors under the Networx Universal contract to CDC and ATSDR.


Thank you.

D.H.

 

I think this part pretty much covers it 

 

"due to the serious nature of botulism, if you have reason to believe a food could be contaminated you should not eat it."

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