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Danger Zone - Yes, another question... - Page 3

post #41 of 48

WOW!!!!

 

Glitterson I hope this does not deter you from continuing on your BBQ/Smoking journey. As you can see there are so many opinions and view points to be had and looked at. Bottom line what everyone is trying to do in their own way is look out for you and your guest safety. When you get back to your original question about the time the food was in the TDZ and how to cool and reheat it safely.

 

Well the cooking part was done and beat to death. Yes it was on the counter a bit long, so counting the time the meat left the fridge the outside was in the TDZ for 4-5 hrs (the center got to 140 after 6hrs, but the outside was there quicker). As for the topic of inserting the probe at the start or the middle. That to be honest is a personal thing. Some say it can push bacteria into the center so they insert later. Others don't worry about it and insert it after serializing it. I personally will insert mine at the start. In the future I would try to cut down on the prep time and or cook at a bit higher temp in the start to get to 140 faster, then back off and allow the low and slow do its thing.

 

I saw no one address the cooling and reheating subject. For me that is where most of the issues are likely to happen.

 

When I do large cooks it depends on what the end result is needed. Am I going to freeze for later use or am I cooling to reheat later.

 

Freezing: I will put about 5# of of the pulled pork into a 1 gallon freezer bag and push out as much air as possible. After I have portioned the meat I will lay it flat in my fridge not stacked to allow it to cool to below 40 degrees. According to Florida State Health Inspectors you have 6 hrs from the time it goes below 140 to get to below 40. I personally try to do this in 2hrs, I think 6hrs is too long.

 

Saving for later bulk use: It is pretty much the same as above, however you are not putting it into freezer bags. You want as shallow of a pan as you can get. I try to use nothing deeper than 2". Place the pan in your fridge with plenty of air flow. I do not put mine into the fridge when it is very hot. You still have the same time frame as before. Again I try to be at around 2hrs. I find I need to mix the pulled pork a few times to achieve this.

 

Reheating: Simply you have 2 hrs to go from <40 to >165. I prefer for smaller amounts to use a saute pan and a bit of sauce to reheat it quickly. For larger amounts I will place in a preheated oven covered with some sauce/liquid. I tend to start at 300 degrees and adjust after about an hour.

 

For the last 18+ years of my career the company I work for follows HACCP Guidelines. That is what I live a die by for work and at home. The 40-140 in under 4hrs is a great guide to use for your cooks. As it states on the opening page for the Food Safety section it is not written in anything other then what is supported and recommended by this site. So you do have some wiggle room, but it is at your discretion and only yours too how much wiggle room you choose to use. As you have seen you will get some passion on both sides of the fence.

post #42 of 48
Ahhhh... another entertaining thread on food safety. I recall some other pationate threads with the same subject in the past. Deja Vu.
post #43 of 48

Once again, my statement has Nothing to do with Canning but since you keep bringing it up, I will re-read the information I posted above and post the relevant portion... I don't know much about Home Canning but I can say that more than one report indicated that Reheating home canned foods would eliminate any Toxin. The following is taken from the information in the second link on Page 387 in reference to the Chart indicating the Temps and Time at which Botulinum Toxins are Destroyed and another Chart that laid out the effect on Toxin destruction at various Ph levels...

 

The heat resistance of toxin produced in the
beef broth and heated without further treatment
compared with toxin adjusted to pH 5.0 was
marked. The toxin at pH 6.8 was inactivated in
3 min at 800C (176°F), and the data yielded a
heat inactivation curve with a slope of 5.40C
(9.70F). The toxin at pH 5.0 was inactivated in

8 min at 80°F (176°F) and yielded a heat inactivation curve with a slope of 4.60C (8.20F).

 

Is it a good idea to disregard C.Botulinum in home canning and not use Pressure Canning to kill CB Spores even though the toxin can be eliminated by reheating...NO...Not only would that be ridiculous but there are canned food like the Relish and Pickles that are not reheated and would be Deadly. There are also forms of CB that not only generate Toxin but spoil the food and give off a foul odor. This info and more is available with a Search of  " Clostridium Botulinum " or " at what temperature is Clostridium Botulinum Toxin Denatured " there is a lot more info on Botulism just like like those I already posted. There is way more out there on the subject than that which is found on Home Canning sites. If there is anything else you wish for me to teach you about Food Safety, feel free to continue asking questions. That is what I am here for...JJ

post #44 of 48

After reading this thread in it's entirety, I have a headache. That's the bad news.

 

The good news is that after considering many of the things that I have eaten in 100+ countries over the past 5 decades, when it comes to food safety practices, I really should have been dead a long time ago, but I'm not. I think I deserve a good bottle of champagne to celebrate.

post #45 of 48

OK, I got it.....  To make food safe, using the guidelines you suggested, all we need to do is adjust the pH.....   Well, that makes perfect sense to us folks at home.....    Thanks for the heads up.......

 

Dave

post #46 of 48
Martin, My responses are based purely on the OP's post and the frequent posts that just say," Toss it out " without a complete evaluation of the circumstances. There are USDA Guidelines and FDA Regulations and being a Newbie or just a home cook does not negate their obligation to know all the facts. There is the Long way, reading page after page of Reports, Fact Sheets and Analytical Dissertations. Or spend 2-4 years in a Culinary School followed by many years of Restaurant Management. Then there is the Short way, come to a Forum like this and ask your question. There is more than one means to an end...JJ
post #47 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef JimmyJ View Post

There are USDA Guidelines and FDA Regulations and being a Newbie or just a home cook does not negate their obligation to know all the facts. There is the Long way, reading page after page of Reports, Fact Sheets and Analytical Dissertations. Or spend 2-4 years in a Culinary School followed by many years of Restaurant Management. Then there is the Short way, come to a Forum like this and ask your question. There is more than one means to an end...JJ


We're talking home cooking here, not "professional" cooking.
The reality is that 99% of folks will never study the official rules and guidelines.
I was simply pointing out the fact that home cooking rules are conservative for that reason.
Sure, if someone has all their ducks in a row, there's little risk of food poisoning, but that's a BIG assumption.
We have no idea what the initial pathogenic or spoilage organism load is, if thermometers are accurate and I know for a fact that not everyone's concept of time is the same.
So, I think it's wise to follow the USDA's home food safety recommendations and not push the limits.

~Martin
post #48 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggingDogFarm View Post


We're talking home cooking here, not "professional" cooking.
The reality is that 99% of folks will never study the official rules and guidelines.
I was simply pointing out the fact that home cooking rules are conservative for that reason.
Sure, if someone has all their ducks in a row, there's little risk of food poisoning, but that's a BIG assumption.
We have no idea what the initial pathogenic or spoilage organism load is, if thermometers are accurate and I know for a fact that not everyone's concept of time is the same.
So, I think it's wise to follow the USDA's home food safety recommendations and not push the limits.

~Martin

Martin I agree to a point, I just can't get in line with the Toss it Out crowd in gray areas without evaluation of the circumstances beyond a conservative Guideline. You are educated regarding Cure application and often go into further detail than the basic Guideline of 1tsp per 5Lb of Meat. There really is no difference here...JJ

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