Danger Zone - Yes, another question...

once youve pushed it in, its in there bud. i really wouldnt worry yourself with it, but its up to you, since youre buying fresh anyways and starting over id say dont worry yourself with cutting the meat and just let er' roll for ol times sake..lol. again, thats just me. then again, im cheap..lmao...i just cant sit idly while a good piece of meat goes to fido...

Geez guys! Take it easy...We are talking Pork, the industry is well documented as going above and beyond to make sure there is no contamination of the meat. Yes there still may be bacteria but this was not ground or injected only probed, AFTER A SALTY RUB was applied. Even though the meat was out 3 hours and took 3 hours to get over 140*F, it was cooked to 208*F. Even a Badass Bacteria like those that cause Botulism was killed and it's deadly Toxin was destroyed at 200*F. There is absolutely NO reason to not serve this meat!!! As far as the Ribs go...As much as possible we like to have them in the danger zone during Prep no more than 2 hours, but that is a GUIDELINE! An extra hour with the application of a Salty Rub will make NO difference, any surface Bacteria was most likely killed. Anything that survived the salt was wiped out MINUTES not hours, after it went in the Smoker and thorough cooking killed anything the Probe MAY have pushed in.

Safety is very important but as I have posted MANY times before, more than ONE mistake has to be made or other major problem has to occur before Bacteria have a chance to cause any damage. The OP made one very small mistake! If he stopped at a Bar on the way home from the Grocery for a few hours, or, the smoker died for an unknown time period, or, the Refer died, or, he had Puss Dripping Soars all over his hands....Then there would be something to worry about! Salt and Heat protects us from a number of Safety Sins!...No one here has ever Coughed, Sneezed, dripped Sweat on the meat, pushed their Hair out of their eyes, scratched their Nose, Face, Arm or any other Body part while prepping food? Do let you Wife, Kids or anyone else in the Kitchen while you Prep. They all Talk. Cough, Sneeze and Breathe around the meat! Do you all wear a Mask yourself, wear Gloves on hands AFTER a thorough washing with Hot Water and Soap? Do you break out a New Cutting Board each time you start prepping your meat? All these cause potential issues from Bacterial Contamination! There is ALWAYS a risk that the meat was not handled properly by the Slaughter House, the Butcher or Grocery Store. Do you all take Ice Chests to the Grocery Store? The point is as long as you are aware of potential problems and you limit what YOU do wrong, then Cook at and to proper temps, there is VERY LITTLE risk of food borne illness. You all have to take What you do after cooking as well. The USDA recommends reheating in Simmering Water or at temps over 325*F. Cooked Food should not be at room temp for service more than two hours unless kept hot or iced and hot food needs to be Cooled and Refrigerated to temps below 80*F in 1.5-2 hours and below 40*F in <6 hours.NEVER put HOT food in a Refer or Freezer!!! This warms the environment and puts ALL THE OTHER FOOD in the danger Zone for some period of time. It is better and perfectly safe to cool wrapped or covered foods on the counter for 2 hours before going in the Refer. Always reduce the physical sice of hot items. Pull the Butts, or put large quantities of liquids into smaller containers. There is no need for Paranoia, just have an understanding of how Bacteria can affect you, be Safe and limit the number of Mistakes. Lastly don't post a response unless you have a thorough understanding of Safety, Sanitation, and Food Borne Illness including all the preventive measures! Incorrect, limited, vague or paranoid responses wastes money by causing people to throw out perfectly good food. Any further questions, feel free to PM me...JJ

Update: I was taught that foods should be cooled to below 70* in 2 hours and 140*F in 4 hours. The latest LESS STRINGENT USDA/FSIS Guidelines have been posted above...JJ

Hey JJ, evening..... Well, it sounds like you just re wrote the book on food safety, that we have been preaching for awhile now...  You even contradict what the FSIS (Food Safety Inspection Service) recommends.....  

I think I will stick with the FSIS and keep recommending what is written in their manuals....     

You probably have some very good reasons for what you posted.... I know you are trained in food safety and were an instructor...  I'm not saying you are in error or anything like that.....  My recollection is we were sticking with Government Guidelines when it came to food safety when making recommendations to members....

Now, I don't know cr@p about food safety except what I read in the Government manuals.... Soooo, I am far, very far from an expert or a novice...  I'm just another joe-blow that likes to read alot......  

Dave

Dave, I am not infallible and the government changes or updates there guidelines constantly. Please post which FSIS guideline you say I have gone against? I have no issue or problem correcting a mistake...JJ

JJ, evening....  Since you are the Moderator in charge of "Food Safety" here, I thought it really weird you would post contrary to us and folks that write the papers on food safety....   The  points below are  probably really nit-picking but food safety is number one around here...  I could be in err trying to interpret the regs....  I been wrong before and will be again, I'm sure......     Dave

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Even though the meat was out 3 hours and took 3 hours to get over 140*F, it was cooked to 208*F
https://statich.smokingmeatforums.com/f/fe/fe9779d2_Danger_Zone40-140.pdf
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://msucares.com/pubs/infosheets/is0734.htm

Botulism (Bacterial Foodborne Illness): Causes, Symptoms, and Control

What Causes It
Clostridium botulinum. Spore-forming organisms that grow and produce toxin in the absence of oxygen, such as in a sealed container. Spores are extremely heat resistant. Spores are harmless, but the toxin is a deadly poison.

Symptoms
Double vision, inability to swallow, speech difficulty, progressive respiratory paralysis. Fatality rate is high, in the United States about 65 percent.

Characteristics of Illness
Transmitted by eating food containing the toxin. Onset: Usually within 12 to 36 hours or longer.

Duration: 3 to 6 days.

Control Measures

Even a Badass Bacteria like those that cause Botulism was killed and it's deadly Toxin was destroyed at 200*F.

Bacterial spores in food are destroyed by high temperatures obtained only in the pressure canner. 

More than 6 hours is needed to kill the spores at boiling temperature (212 °F). 

The toxin is destroyed by boiling for 10 to 20 minutes; time required depends on kind of food.

Ok I am rude. I don't know why they put out food saftey rules??? I guess for the fun of it!

happy smoken.

David

Dave this is a typical case of a member has a small deviation from the " Guidelines " And those with some level of knowledge jumps all over the guy telling him he should toss " the highly Bacterial infested " meat in the garbage without a clue about the common types of Bacteria, Bacterial growth, the Phases of growth, how that Bacteria causes illness, under what circumstances, by what means and corrective measures. People should never be told to Waste food unless ALL the facts are taken into consideration! There are USDA guidelines and Fact Sheets that are posted for the General Public which by design are simply written and general with, " a lot of built in precaution." It is for this reason we at SMF follow and quote these guidelines but it is just that a Guideline. The info you posted does not take into consideration the type of food, size of the food, how it was handled before prep, if any Antibacterial agents are being applied, Salt, Vinegar, etc., how warm the product actually got, how soon it was cooked after deviation and to what final IT. To make my point, the USDA info says no more than 2 hours in the Danger Zone, it is a good reference point and very safe if that is the only Food Safety Education one has. But Culinary Education, an in depth study of Food Safety and Sanitation and owning/managing several Restaurants that were Inspected with regulatory compliance mandatory, requires that I know and follow this...

http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/ucm186451.htm
[h4]3-501.19 Time as a Public Health Control.[/h4]

1. (A) Except as specified under ¶ (D) of this section, if time without temperature control is used as the public health control for a working supply of potentially hazardous food  (time/temperature control for safety food) before cooking, or for ready-to-eat potentially hazardous food  (time/temperature control for safety food) that is displayed or held for sale or service:
   1. (1) Written procedures shall be prepared in advance, maintained in the food establishment  and made available to the regulatory authority  upon request that specify: Pf
      1. (a) Methods of compliance with Subparagraphs (B)(1) -(3) or C)(1)-(5) of this section;  Pf  and
      2. (b) Methods of compliance with § 3-501.14 for food  that is prepared, cooked, and refrigerated before time is used as a public health control. Pf

1. (B) If time temperature control is used as the public health control up to a maximum of 4 hours:
   1. (1) The food  shall have an initial temperature of 5ºC (41ºF) or less when removed from cold holding temperature control, or 57°C (135°F) or greater when removed from hot holding temperature control; P
   2. (2) The food  shall be marked or otherwise identified to indicate the time that is 4 hours past the point in time when the food  is removed from temperature control; Pf
   3. (3) The food  shall be cooked and served, served at any temperature if ready-to-eat, or discarded, within 4 hours from the point in time when the food  is removed from temperature control; P  and
   4. (4) The food  in unmarked containers or packages,  or marked to exceed a 4-hour limit shall be discarded. P
2. 
   Time – maximum up to 6 hours
   (C) If time without temperature control is used as the public health control up to a maximum of 6 hours:
   1. (1) The food  shall have an initial temperature of 5ºC (41ºF) or less when removed from temperature control and the food  temperature may not exceed 21ºC (70ºF) within a maximum time period of 6 hours; P
   2. (2) The food  shall be monitored to ensure the warmest portion of the food  does not exceed 21ºC (70ºF) during the 6-hour period, unless an ambient air temperature is maintained that ensures thefood  does not exceed 21ºC (70ºF) during the 6-hour holding period; Pf
   3. (3) The food  shall be marked or otherwise identified to indicate:  Pf
      1. (a) The time when the food  is removed from 5ºC (41ºF) or less cold holding temperature control, Pf  and
      2. (b) The time that is 6 hours past the point in time when the food  is removed from cold holding temperature control; Pf
   4. (4) The food  shall be:
      1. (a)  Discarded if the temperature of the food  exceeds 21°C (70°F), P  or
      2. (b)  Cooked and served, served at any temperature if ready-to-eat,  or discarded within a maximum of 6 hours from the point in time when the food  is removed from 5ºC (41ºF) or less cold holding temperature control; P  and
   5. (5) The food  in unmarked containers or packages,  or marked with a time that exceeds the 6-hour limit shall be discarded. P
3. (D) A food establishment  that serves a highly susceptible population  may not use time as specified under ¶¶ (A), (B) or (C) of this section as the public health control for raw eggs.

This is the regulation that specifies how long the " Working Supply " of Protein can be " Out of Refrigeration " to be cut, trimmed, portioned, etc. before cooking we call this Prep Time. This section of Regulation has been Incorrectly posted as the basis of " The 4 Hour Rule ". It is not. There is no reference to cooking time or temp specification to a given IT, but according to my predecessor, it was considered in devising the four hour rule, as was the 2 Hour Guideline of the USDA, recommended cooking Temps and Internal temps. Also referenced were several other Professional Texts.

Dave the second batch of info and source while accurate is some what incomplete and only talks about Home Canning. There are other factors to take into consideration in this case. While the probe may have pushed C. Botulinum Bacteria or Spores into the meat, the bacteria was killed at 165*F and the spores take DAYS to germinate and produce dangerous levels of Toxin not a couple of hours. I could not copy the relevant charts but see pages 17-20 of this in depth link... http://www.ifr.ac.uk/info/science/foodbornepathogens/docs/Final_project_report0707.pdf   

Regarding the Denaturing of the Toxin, if any formed, this happens at temperatures as low as 170*F in as little as 10 minutes of exposure. See chart page 387 of this link... http://aem.asm.org/content/36/2/386.full.pdf   So my Badass comment was not only accurate but contained a level of built in precaution.

It is not my intent to Brag, make any member feel inadequate for their knowledge or offend anyone. The Staff and many Members here are well versed on Food Safety and 99% of the time make the right call...But it is the Gray Areas like these," it took a little long to Prep ", " The Smoker Temp went below 225 for X hours ", " I injected or probed the raw Butt and it took X hours instead of 4 to get to 140*F " and a few other situations, that take more in depth knowledge and looking at the entire situation before responding," Toss the meat out! "  Answering these question/problems is the reason Jeff asked me to be Safety Moderator and the reason I spend countless hours on this Forum. Thanks Joe for bringing this one to my attention and if anyone has a doubt, Please contact me or JarJarChef whom is also similarly trained...JJ

themule69 said:

Ok I am rude. I don't know why they put out food saftey rules??? I guess for the fun of it!
happy smoken.
David

Click to expand...

You really need to watch how you word your posts. I suggest that you think real hard before you let your fingers touch your keyboard.

And like JJ said in post #22, "don't post a response unless you have a thorough understanding of Safety, Sanitation, and Food Borne Illness including all the preventive measures", so if you can't state facts then you probably shouldn't state anything at all!

Botulism gets a lot of attention, but:

“botulism ------- However, only four of the seven known BT types (A, B, E, and F) cause human botulism. One of the most deadly known toxins, estimates indicate that approximately 70 one millionths of a gram can kill an average adult. However, of the approximate 140 cases per year in the U.S., there are usually only 1-3 deaths. “

OTOH:

“CDC estimates that each year roughly 1 in 6 Americans (or 48 million people) get sick, 128,000 are hospitalized, and 3,000 die of food borne diseases. “

Traffic fatalities - 33,808

Firearm fatalities – 32,000

dcarch

Quite frankly.. I view this danger zone....similar to the "sky is falling".

Use common sense and you'll be fine.

I guess I fall into the "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" category. My recommendation to chuck the meat "if anyone on the guest list is under 5, over 60 or in any way has a compromised immune system," was based on the fact that :

A.) I was going completely on what the OP said without any more knowledge of the specific condition of the meat or those who would be consuming it and:

B.) The fact that certain portions of our population are MUCH more susceptible to even low levels of bacterial contamination than your average healthy adult.

Case in point. Last year my wife, her parents and I were traveling up the coast. We stopped for the night on Ocracoke Island. It was early April and the season was quite a few weeks away from kicking in. Since we'd been on the road all day and none of us felt like going out to dinner, my wife and I walked down the street to a restaurant and ordered 2 chicken Caesar salads for carryout. They were huge so we split them 4 ways. In other words, we all ate exactly the same thing from the same source. Next morning both my in-laws, aged 76 and 94 were sick as can be. The whole gamut, sweats, chills, vomiting and diarrhea. My wife and I, both reasonably healthy 40 somethings, were completely fine.

Now I've worked in beach towns and I know that in the early part of the season conditions aren't always optimal. Business is slow and dollars need to be stretched. Perhaps the chicken was a few days past its sell by date, or the dressing was a little long in the tooth, who knows? It all looked and smelled fine, and I'm assuming any abuses of time and temperature controls were fairly minor. All I know is that "margin for error" built into the food safety code gets thinner and thinner for folks the older they get.

Long and short is, I'd rather be guilty of advising that someone waste potentially safe food than advising they eat or serve potentially dangerous food.

Given the nature of the subject, however, I think in the future I'll keep my mouth shut and let the experts give out the advice.

jbomx363 said:

Quite frankly.. I view this danger zone....similar to the "sky is falling".

Use common sense and you'll be fine.

Click to expand...

Bacteria is a Very Real issue and time in the Danger Zone is an important subject. If you ever have the misfortune of Food Poisoning, you will pay a great deal of attention to Food Safety. I once spent 5 days sleeping on the Bathroom floor because I spent every half hour or so emptying my Guts from Both Ends. It was 20 years ago and several years before I was trained in food safety. I went to the local Pizza joint and ordered a pizza with extra garlic. When I arrived to pick up the pizza I asked if it had the extra Garlic. The owner said no, he forgot, he opened the box pulled a container of Garlic in Olive Oil from under a shelf, at room temp, and spread a couple spoon fulls over the pizza. I took it home and ate 4 slices, my wife had a Sub Sandwich. About 6 hours later I had the worst cramps of my life and the explosive gut emptying started. I have never been sicker in my life! The family Dr. determined it was Salmonella and the restaurant was shut down for improper food storage and handling. Some time later the place reopened but business never recovered and he sold the restaurant...JJ 

Do you remember the first astronauts? A few days in space with no gravity, and their muscles got so atrophied they were unable to stand up or walk when they returned to earth.

You immune system is the same, if you don’t make them work for a living, you will get weaker and weaker.

Respect all health sanitary recommendations and guidelines, but do be a little flexible based on your life experience.

dcarch

Chef JJ, Morning.....   Well, this is my last question...... Promise.......  Looking at the food safety statement you posted below.....

Would it be safe to assume that food (meats, vegetables, stews, soups etc.) that we want to can at home, is safe from all forms of bacteria, pathogens, botulisms etc. if we use the "water bath" method...  That cooks food at 212 deg F for a given time.... 

I am so confused about the different regulations, I will never post again about food safety.....  

Telling folks to throw out food that could be safe to eat, or go ahead and eat the food "it is safe", and have them or their loved ones get ill....   I'm totally done with food safety....

For now, I will stick with mathematics..... at least I don't think they have changed the rules on that.....  except I heard 3 x 4 can = 11... and you are not wrong..

From post # 22.........

Even though the meat was out 3 hours and took 3 hours to get over 140*F, it was cooked to 208*F. Even a Badass Bacteria like those that cause Botulism was killed and it's deadly Toxin was destroyed at 200*F. There is absolutely NO reason to not serve this meat!!!

Chef JimmyJ said:

Bacteria is a Very Real issue and time in the Danger Zone is an important subject. If you ever have the misfortune of Food Poisoning, you will pay a great deal of attention to Food Safety. I once spent 5 days sleeping on the Bathroom floor because I spent every half hour or so emptying my Guts from Both Ends. It was 20 years ago and several years before I was trained in food safety. I went to the local Pizza joint and ordered a pizza with extra garlic. When I arrived to pick up the pizza I asked if it had the extra Garlic. The owner said no, he forgot, he opened the box pulled a container of Garlic in Olive Oil from under a shelf, at room temp, and spread a couple spoon fulls over the pizza. I took it home and ate 4 slices, my wife had a Sub Sandwich. About 6 hours later I had the worst cramps of my life and the explosive gut emptying started. I have never been sicker in my life! The family Dr. determined it was Salmonella and the restaurant was shut down for improper food storage and handling. Some time later the place reopened but business never recovered and he sold the restaurant...JJ 

Click to expand...

I'm not discounting it. I surely don't want to be responsible for tummy aches and in your case above, much worse.

I've read a ton (USDA site is filled with info, especially on 7D kill rates and depth penetration of pathogens on beef, poultry, pork, etc.), contacted you and others on specific scenarios and questions enough to form my own opinions. 

I understand the sites rules and legal position on the subject, which is why I'll be quiet now.

So then, folks are to ignore the USDA's safety rules for home cooking because there are other often much more liberal rules for commercial food prep and our food safety expert insists it's okay even though home cooks aren't preparing foods under ALL the same stringent rules as commercial kitchens?

When it comes to the USDA's rules for safe food handling at home, how is one (I have the inexperienced in mind here) supposed to know that to ignore and what not to ignore?

I think it's encouraging those with little experience to take unnecessary risks.

Is that what the official stance is here now?

"Bacteria grow most rapidly in the range of temperatures
between 40 ° and 140 °F, doubling in number in as
little as 20 minutes. This range of temperatures is often
called the “Danger Zone.” That’s why the Meat and
Poultry Hotline advises consumers to never leave food
out of refrigeration over 2 hours. If the temperature is
above 90 °F, food should not be left out more than 1
hour."

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/co...andling/how-temperatures-affect-food/ct_index
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/co...food-handling/danger-zone-40-f-140-f/ct_index
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/shared/PDF/Danger_Zone.pdf

Take it or leave it.

~Martin

Another point, there's absolutely no reason why a bunch of meat should set out on a counter at room temperature for 3 or more hours, or even 2 hours, or even one hour in a home setting, that's just not good practice, why encourage it?
Keep cold foods cold and hot foods hot.


~Martin

I don't think anyone is suggesting ignoring anything. From a real world perspective, a single mistake during the preparation of food does not make the food poisonous. I believe all that Chef Jimmy was suggesting is that folks use their heads and form a reasonable decision based on their experience and the particular situation. The OP knows the situation much better than me and is, in the end, responsible for any decisions he makes. I may have been quick to suggest chucking the meat if it was to be served to older or younger people, but  MY experience tells me that their immune system is different than mine and care should be taken.

JJ offered a real world suggestion based on known facts, his experience, and industry guidelines. The fact that he didn't just regurgitate gov-speak is a testament to his experience and real world understanding of food safety.

In the end, the most important ingredient in safe food is your brain. Use it and the odds of poisoning your family and friends go way down.

jbomx363 said:

Quite frankly.. I view this danger zone....similar to the "sky is falling".

Use common sense and you'll be fine.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately you cannot regulate common sense. Just look around and go checkout Morons In The News.

I have to agree with Martin. It just ain’t worth getting sick over. When in doubt toss it out

The point is, not everyone tuning in has tons of experience, hence the importance of being very conservative when making recommendations.
There are reasons why the USDA guidelines for home cooking are very conservative.
I know what I would personally do in a situation like this, but it's not necessarily what I'd recommend to others.


~Martin