Water pans, do you use them and why?

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Actually, that is not correct. Air is moving into the smoker at all times and leaving with more water than it started with. Cool air coming in is much smaller than warm, wet air leaving and far more dense.

Wet bulb versus dry bulb temperatures are nothing more than a measure of the Relative Humidity. I assume your suggestion is to raise the RH to prevent evaporation of water. The problem is you have to evaporate water to raise the RH. The theory is that reduces the rate the water CAN evaporate from the product. It will not evaporate as rapidly and will cook with the lower evaporation rate.

Elevated RH leads to water droplets on the product which trap smoke particles and often lead to "hot spots" and such in flavor... It is not a good thing in fish smoking unless the smoke is filtered well.

Please excuse the dydactic nature of this next example but I think it will be much more clear if spelled out this way:
Wet air is lighter than dry air.
Warm air is lighter than dry air.
Warm, wet air is far lighter than cool, dry air.

In the combustion area liquids and solids are being converted by heat to gases and oxidizing (burning), or reacting to other components, or perhaps just remaining themselves and wafting away.

Those elements that oxidize release heat.
Those elements that react with other elements may release heat, consume heat, or do neither... Almost all release heat.

In all cases conbustion gases become huge compared to their former physical size as wood. As gases they now have the ability to carry away water vapor with them. The water that evaporates from the wood is of course part of that water, but far more can be held by the combustion gases.

As the gases leave the combustion area they cool rapidly (Juul-Thompson effect among many others) and increase their water carrying abilities.

All of which contribute to draft.

Trying to keep up with the amount of water it takes to keep RH high enough to inhibit evaporation means a lot of water has to evaporate somewhere else. It takes more than 15 thousand calories to evaporate an ounce of water... which explains exactly why evaporative cooling is so effective as the heat required to evaporate the water leaves with the water vapor, cooling the substrate it leaves behind.

Why does this mean anything to fish smoking? Pretty simple and obvious once you look at it. The pellicle is water soluble and will go away in high humidity. All the attempts to control the stall with wraps and such speak to the lack of good crust in the end. With fish smoking the pellicle is critical...

Actually, commercial smokers have been discussing humidity control and understood evaporative cooling as the culprit decades ago. In the lumber industry wood in solar dry kilns was noted to cool during the heat of the day as RH rose and circulation increased in my "Dry Kiln Operators Manual" dated 1961 and they reference work from the late 1800s.

(almost deleted this bit of bits but decided to just set it aside in parenthesis for those looking for wandering details... sorry...
If there is not enough air available to maintain fire you have to have electric heat so we will leave that out of the discussion.

Propane of course generates a ton of water to produce heat; one propane molecule and five oxygen molecules produce four water molecules and three carbon dioxide molecules. That is more than a pound and a half of water vapor produced for every pound of propane burned.

Ethanethiol is a whole other subject on propane, and I do not want to eat it...)
 
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This looks to be going South in a hurry. This is Smoking Meats Forum and not the Science Channel forum.  I will agree that knowing the how and the why smoking works is interesting, folks aren't here to watch Art and Martin engage in scientific debate. If you two would like to continue this, please use the PM feature. If this continues, I will lock the thread and delete your posts.

Proceed accordingly~
 
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WOW!! Now that is some serious smoke talk. Glad I have fun when I smoke. I'd hate to worry about my beer evaporating into my smoker through airflow because I was standing too close. Would that add to to the stall?
 
WOW!! Now that is some serious smoke talk. Glad I have fun when I smoke. I'd hate to worry about my beer evaporating into my smoker through airflow because I was standing too close. Would that add to to the stall?
spit.gif
LMAO!!!!  
 
This looks to be going South in a hurry. This is Smoking Meats Forum and not the Science Channel forum.  I will agree that knowing the how and the why smoking works is interesting, folks aren't here to watch Art and Martin engage in scientific debate. If you two would like to continue this, please use the PM feature. If this continues, I will lock the thread and delete your posts.

Proceed accordingly~

If my posts are irrelevant, please delete my posts, including quotes of my posts.

Thanks!

~Martin
 
This looks to be going South in a hurry. This is Smoking Meats Forum and not the Science Channel forum.  I will agree that knowing the how and the why smoking works is interesting, folks aren't here to watch Art and Martin engage in scientific debate. If you two would like to continue this, please use the PM feature. If this continues, I will lock the thread and delete your posts.

Proceed accordingly~

Dutch, I agree that there has been most recently a bit too poking -- I would not call it debating -- I would rather see you ask the "pokers" individually to delete their posts then delete or lock this post. The information has been hugely informative and has incited, at least me, to further research the craft of smoking. To think that any one of us absolute knowledge of this question is short-sighted and while we may not want to follow (or won't; I hate math) follow the scientific value of the questioned posed does not mean it is not relevant.

To that end; Martin, Art, if you can't play nice, pm it.
 
Scroll up one post please.
I asked that my posts be deleted.
And please don't insist that I carry on the conversation in a PM.
The conversation is over.


~Martin

I'm sorry, Martin, my reply to Dutch was meant in defense to both you and Art; I felt you both supplied valid, informative and research-invoking information.
 
For the most part i believe it comes down to this.

Stick burner or charcoal cooker- water pan is useful to humidify the air and regulate temps from getting too high.

Propane cookers already put out moisture so you don't need or want a water pan. During the combustion process propane actually creates water.  Why propane cookers come with water pans is beyond me. 
 
 Well a group of us were having dinner at Sonny's which is a chain of BBQ restaurants in the south. I being interested in smoking meat asked if I could see their smoker set up. The waitress said its not allowed which is probability a standard answer but would relay my request to the manager. When we were almost done with our meal the manager came to the table and asked if I was the one who wanted to see their set up. It was a Southern Pride which almost every chain BBQ place uses. When I looked into the wood burn chamber two gallon cans were setting just inside the door. I asked what they were for, answer, water. They put water cans between the door and the wood fire to increase moisture. These cans sit beside the fire but I'm sure it does warm up in that chamber. Point is they are not trying to steam the meat just keep it from drying out. And they use mostly gas for cooking. Just though it was interesting.
 
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I wonder if outside air humidity makes a difference...I use a smoke hollow with water pan...I am in Phoenix Arizona with notoriously "dry" climate....I did move the pan up to the bottom shelf...I did not like it where it was as it would divert the heat and smoke right into the side vents...I felt like I was losing a lot of heat and smoke flavor right out the side...that and the pan water would simmer off real quick and my temp would,spike....where I have it located now it makes the temp and smoke flow real stable for hours.
 
I wonder if outside air humidity makes a difference...I use a smoke hollow with water pan...I am in Phoenix Arizona with notoriously "dry" climate....I did move the pan up to the bottom shelf...I did not like it where it was as it would divert the heat and smoke right into the side vents...I felt like I was losing a lot of heat and smoke flavor right out the side...that and the pan water would simmer off real quick and my temp would,spike....where I have it located now it makes the temp and smoke flow real stable for hours.

Smokers vary a tremendous amount in every aspect of the way they operate... finding the best way to run you gear is critical to producing the best possible food in the end.

Understanding the variables required to fine-tune your rigging is critical to producing the best food possible from your rigging.

Having someone suggest my opinion based on years of intense research and involving generating letters after my name in most venues is somehow unwelcome is getting tiresome.

Should anyone question ANY aspect of ANY of my posts, EVER, please let me know what I can do to explain my comments. I may have made a mistake, been less than totally clear, left something out, failed to articulate a point, or even been wrong... But I take huge pride in not making mistakes and not posting guesses, anywhere. I welcome all input on my posts.
 
the goose
Yes, Relative Humidity (R.H.) is critical in how your smoker works in typical AZ conditions. But you had that figured already...
art
 
 
I use play sand instead of water in my propane smoker. Two reasons, I have an AMAZE-N-Smoker that i use to generate my smoke, water in the pan would make it go out. The other reason is that water doesn't add moisture or flavor to the meat. I add flavor and moisture to the meat through rubs, maranades, injections, brines etc. The play sand keeps its temps really well and never needs to be refilled on long smokes. Cuz remember, if your lookin' you aint cookin. If I need water, for instance when I am smoking sausage I have a little 9x9 stainless cake pan that I place in the bottom of the smoker. The casings need to stay moist during the cooking.

Another strong opinion I have is that soaking the wood chips is counter productive, the chips don't burn any longer when soaked, they just take longer to get smoking. The longevity of chip smokage comes from how much air gets to them, control the air and you will get longer smoke times and better smoke period.

Have fun kicken those boys butts.
Your reasoning sounds good and I bet the results are great! I am going to try sand instead of

water as a regulator. Thanks for sharing.
 
welp.....

Wow more great info from this site.  Again, I always told to keep my water tray filled with water/juice and just today someone told me "WHOA?! WATER IN YOUR PAN TRAY? DAMN, ARE YOU A NEWB?!?!?" Well, yes, yes I am.  So I decided to search this topic (on here) and have a learned this might be one of the reason's I was not burning my chips the last time I smoked.
 
welp.....


Wow more great info from this site.  Again, I always told to keep my water tray filled with water/juice and just today someone told me "WHOA?! WATER IN YOUR PAN TRAY? DAMN, ARE YOU A NEWB?!?!?" Well, yes, yes I am.  So I decided to search this topic (on here) and have a learned this might be one of the reason's I was not burning my chips the last time I smoked.
This thread is just one other perspective, so the best thing you can do is experiment with both methods and see what works best for you. I use pea gravel in my water pan because I have a propane smoker. Propane gives off enough moisture when burning to keep my chamber humidity balanced, but if I ever switch to charcoal or stick burner, I may use a water pan more frequently. Just got to play with it until things turn out how you like.
 
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welp.....



Wow more great info from this site.  Again, I always told to keep my water tray filled with water/juice and just today someone told me "WHOA?! WATER IN YOUR PAN TRAY? DAMN, ARE YOU A NEWB?!?!?" Well, yes, yes I am.  So I decided to search this topic (on here) and have a learned this might be one of the reason's I was not burning my chips the last time I smoked.
This thread is just one other perspective, so the best thing you can do is experiment with both methods and see what works best for you. I use pea gravel in my water pan because I have a propane smoker. Propane gives off enough moisture when burning to keep my chamber humidity balanced, but if I ever switch to charcoal or stick burner, I may use a water pan more frequently. Just got to play with it until things turn out how you like.
indeed. ;)
 
I've reading the conversations around the water pan and the pros and cons.  Well, last weekend for the first time, I tried sand in place of the water in the water pan. I read a few posts that the sand would help keep the temp consistent as the liquid was such an energy absorber. All went really well and the temp held better - btw I have an electric smoker. But, I didn't foil the pan and the sand baked in like a rock. Other than having to chisel it out, I'm not sure how to clean the pan. I've soaked for a few day and that did little. Any thoughts on how to clean the sand out? Next time - Foil over the top for sure!! Thanks
 
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