Canadian bacon challenge - dry cure vs brine - side by side test

Smoking B said:

It has just come to my attention that TQ should not be used at refrigerator temps

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:icon_eek:

Where did that information come from?

MTQ is used a fridge temps all the time.


~Martin

Smoking B said:

It has just come to my attention that TQ should not be used at refrigerator temps due to the nitrate content not being converted to nitrites at the lower temps. My next batch will be made with cure #1 for both the dry & wet cure to do the comparison. I apologize for any confusion or misleading info.

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Good to know. I have not used TQ on whole meats, just in the one batch of BearCarvers pepperoni. I thought that he had a CB recipe too that uses TQ, in fact I think all his bacon does. Is it okay because he hot smokes it?

Can you point us to where you came up with this information?

Chef JimmyJ said:

Smoking B said:

:eek:    Sorry - wasn't trying to piss anyone off. I don't get to see my parents very often but they have been back in the area for a few weeks for the holidays. They were here again tonight

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X2 on what JJ said... we were only messing with ya... Lost my mom a year ago the 9th,,, Make sure you spend as much time with the folks as you can....

For the comparison.... Thumbs Up

For you. when cooking the brined bacon,,, did it seem like it took a little longer to cook ? Meaning did it have to steam the moisture out before it started to brown and crisp up ?

This has been an ongoing discussion, for some time, on this forum and elsewhere.....  Reading between the lines, and interpreting what is written, nitrates convert to nitrites in the presence of live bacteria... refrigeration slows or stops the growth of bacteria.... therefore the nitrates are not converted to nitrites..  nitrates should not be used when it is expected the meat will be fried, due to the formation of nitrosamines... assuming Canadian bacon will be fried, it is not a wise choice to use a curing agent that contains nitrates.....

You may choose to use any curing agent you wish...  This is just a note on what I have interpreted reading all this stuff many, many times..  Morton's has been noted as saying their TQ is safe for bacon etc.... I'm not arguing with their statement.. It may be perfectly fine and safe...  The amount of nitrates could be perfectly safe to consume... Darned if I know what amount is safe... 

I feel it is up to the user to decide what to do... and I feel it is important that both sides of the story be written.... 

Now you have my point of view....  

From Wikipedia.....

Making dry sausages involves curing salts, which incorporate sodium nitrite  and sodium nitrate. Nitrites are used for all types of sausages and are the most common. Nitrates are used only in the preparation of the cured dry style of sausages. Over a period of time the nitrates are converted into nitrites by endogenous or added bacteria.  Dry cured sausage are cured at temps above 45 Deg F..  live active bacteria are necessary for nitrates to convert to nitrites..

The human digestive system  manufactures nitrites, which is thought to be what prevents botulism, which would thrive in the anaerobic  conditions and temperature range of the digestive system (gut).The lack of nitrites  has been implicated in sudden infant death syndrome.[sup][citation needed][/sup]

Cured meat products typically contain less than 40 ppm w/w  nitrites.

Potassium nitrite  and potassium nitrate  additions allow the production of sausages with lower levels of sodium. When using the potassium form, it is necessary to include other ingredients to mask the bitter flavours it imparts.

In the sausage industry the nitrites and nitrates are pre-formulated into products called Prague powder#1 and Prague powder#2. Prague powder #1 contains 6.25% sodium nitrite and 93.75% sodium chloride and is used for the preparation of all cured meats and sausages other than the dry type.[sup][1][/sup]  Prague powder #2 contains 1 ounce of sodium nitrite (6.25%) and 0.64 ounces sodium nitrate (4.0%) per pound of finished product (the remaining 14.36 ounces is sodium chloride) and is used for the preparation of cured dry sausages. Prague powder #2 should never be used on any product that will be fried at high temperature (e.g. bacon) because of the resulting formation of nitrosamines. 

Prague powder #2,  Cure #2,  Mortons Tender Quick (TQ).....  all contain nitrates...  Nitrates are to be used in the making of dry style sausages....  Nitrates should never be used in a product that will be fried.... 

FSIA regulations. pg 28

Regardless of the curing method used, restricted ingredient calculations for bacon are based on

the green weight of the skinless belly. For rind-on bacon, e.g., where the skin is sold as part of

the finished product, a restricted ingredient conversion calculation is necessary. Nitrate is no

longer permitted in any curing method for bacon.  I take this to mean any product that will be fried... 

OK, that is all I know.......  Whip me, beat me, make me write bad checks...... but don't call me late for some good Q.....

Dave

FWIW.....

The study that created all the ridiculous hysteria and fear mungering was on bacon fried at 600 degrees, I don't know anyone in their right mind who fries bacon at that temperature.

The USDA is overly cautious.

Why doesn't the USDA allow nitrate in commercial bacon?
Because nitrates convert to nitrites.

Why is that a potential concern (according to them)?
Because under certain conditions, nitrites can convert to nitrosamines which are potentially carcinogenic.

What other measures does the USDA require in commercial bacon to limit nitrites?
Nitrite is limited to no more than 120ppm for skin off bacon and less for skin-on (something that's not really pushed on this forum)
All commercial bacon must also contain a cure accelerator so that nitrite will quickly convert to nitric oxide which limits residual nitrite which could convert to nitrosamines (this is something that's never pushed on this forum)

So, unless all the above are folowed, nitrosamines are still a potential problem, however remote.

I also agree that everyone should make their own decisions.

Those who fear it should follow the almighty USDA's rules to the "t", NOT just part way. Nitrite only! Nitrite limited to no more that 120 ppm! Cure accelerator!

Personally, I think it's much ado about nothing!!!

Thousands of people home cure bacon with MTQ, thousands of people home cure bacon with cure#1 with more than 120 ppm nitrite (hopefully not more than 156ppm nitrite), thousands upon thousands of people home cure bacon without cure accelerator.

Again, do whatever makes you feel good and safe.

Carry on....:wink:

~Martin

Now I'm really confused !   
 

Too bad it has to be confusing, unfortunately, the inspectors' book has caused a lot of confusion.

Just follow the basic rules for home curing and you'll be fine.

Follow Morton's instructions when using their products.

Follow the generally accepted rule of thumb when using cure #1 which is one level teaspoon per 5 lbs. of meat.



~Martin

If we dont like the IRS,FBI,ATF and the rest of those clowns ..why is the USDA accepted as gospel..

Makes no sense to me...

fpnmf said:

If we dont like the IRS,FBI,ATF and the rest of those clowns ..why is the USDA accepted as gospel..

Makes no sense to me...

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Makes absolutely no sense to me either!!!!!



~Martin

Smoking B said:

It has just come to my attention that TQ should not be used at refrigerator temps

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Just to clarify.

MTQ is an all-purpose cure.
MTQ contains nitrite in addition to nitrate.
Folks should follow the directions given by Morton's which are printed on the bag.
In general, cure at 36 to 40 degrees F.

Anyway, back to the Canadian Bacon.

The bacon looks great Jeremy, I'm glad it turned out good!!!


~Martin

So just to confirm, I can roll my pork loin in whatever I want and smoke it and it will be the best Canadian bacon I've ever had, right???

Both "dry cure" and "wet cure" perform the same basic function;  you apply the cure, it equalizes with the inner moisture, and you smoke it.  One is immersed, one is coated and will form its own brine from moisture pulled from the meat.  It is more complicated to dry cure than wet cure, spreading the cure evenly, turning every day, vs. mixing the ingredients with water and letting it soak.  But, it is just processing.  The REAL difference is, with wet cure, you can adjust the quantities of ingredients such as salt and types of salt, sugar or Splenda[emoji]174[/emoji] alternatives, Brown or white, etc.; whereas dry cure, you get what you get with only changing premade mixes.  No chance to adjust.  If your experiment the TQ was a tad bit saltier, add a full cup of salt, vs. 2/3; it's that simple.  Wet brining will be moister; but, if it's too salty in a fry test, soaking in water for an hour arrives at the same thing.  Regardless, they are both using similar ingredients and similar processes and done about the same way, it is entirely YOUR preference whichever way you want to cure.  Sometimes its a matter of physical space; 3 pc of pork in ziplocs is much easier on fridge space than a 5 gal. bucket.  I'd say it was a great comparison and points out some of the benefits of both methods and that they compliment each other vs. being in competition with each other!  Thank you so much of doing the test!

Ok - I thought you were mad I hadn't put the whole results up. I was trying to keep everyone updated by posting the vote count till I could elaborate later once my parents left...

Thanks!

MAD are you kidding me? You are a neighbor and I am a fan of your work. No, like I said just goofing on you. Now I hope YOU were not offended!...As far as I am concerned we are all good...JJ

Couldnt sleep.. and when that happens I read up on curing.. this was a great read. .. I learned alot just off this thread..with a few other tonight. . Im ready for some CB atleast I think..
I think the dry mix cure is what I'll give a go. I have both TQ and cure#1... think ill find a recipe and go with cure#1...
Thanks for the read and the trial tutorial Smoking B
Mike

How long did you end up cold smoking for?

Good question KJW08.

I've found this thread a good read.