Trouble With Meat Tenderness...What am I Doing Wrong?

djtech2k · Sep 30, 2012

This is my second season of learning how to smoke, so I am still learning. Based on feedback here in the forum, I use a MES 40 as my primary smoker, with AMNPS.

Ok, so I have smoked the main meats several times with varying results. In most cases, the flavor is pretty good, but the tenderness is not nearly what I want. This particularly happens with Brisket, Pork Butt, and Ribs.

I have tried many different methods and preparations, but mostly the same results. My briskets normally end up tasting good, but it seems to have more a steak consistency. I want the meat to have that "melt in your mouth" kind of consistency. When I slice it, its hard to slice. I have tried taking it out at various temps, but nothing changes. I have followed many methods, including here and Myron Mixon's book. Here is a bried breakdown of what I do:

- 5-8lb Brisket

- Sometimes I inject with a beef broth kind of injection and/or let it marinate overnight in the marinade.

- If I do not marinade it, then I let it set in run overnight. I have injected and rubbed overnight before also.

- Cook temps I have cooked from 200-270. I know its a wide range, but I have tried many different temps.

- I have removed the meat av various temps also. I have taken ot off anywhere from 175-200. I wrap it up and let it rest for 1-4 hours before slicing.

So what am I doing wrong? How can I get the meat to fall apart much easier? I have a similar, but less severe result with pork but.

s2k9k · Sep 30, 2012

First guess is, are you sure your temps are correct? Have you checked the accuracy of your therms? Another way to check once you know your temps are up there is by probing for tenderness, you can use a therm or toothpick and just probe all around and it should slide in like going in hot butter, no resistance at all, when it does that you know it's going to be tender.

mike johnson · Sep 30, 2012

pork if your going to pull it is best pulled at 195 wraped to let rest. The temp will still go up a bit after pulling from smoker thats why you should let it be wraped in a towel in a cooler for about an hour min. IMO

fpnmf · Sep 30, 2012

Here's how to do sliced and pulled pork!!

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/128258/todays-smoke-a-tale-of-two-butts

djtech2k · Sep 30, 2012

For temp, I use the Maverick. Of course the MES 40 has one built in also, but I use the maverick. The temp is different on each shelf and in different locations, but from what I hear that is expected.

I am always afraid of overcooking beef, but I have been letting it go to 200-210 area recently since I have read that people recommend it. In all cases, it has more of a steak consistency and not something I could pull or shred.

djtech2k · Sep 30, 2012

Mike Johnson said:
pork if your going to pull it is best pulled at 195 wraped to let rest. The temp will still go up a bit after pulling from smoker thats why you should let it be wraped in a towel in a cooler for about an hour min. IMO

Are you saying to remove it from the smoker when it hits 195 and then wrap it to rest?

fpnmf · Sep 30, 2012

djtech2k said:
Are you saying to remove it from the smoker when it hits 195 and then wrap it to rest?

Check out my thread from above..#4

Most folks run them up to 200-205 before wrapping and resting in the cooler..

roller · Sep 30, 2012

I would say its your thermo...

djtech2k · Sep 30, 2012

Well, I use the maverick as my main thermo, but the MES also has a builtin cabin thermo and meat probe.

coronaca92879 · Sep 30, 2012

How easy does your probs pull out when it's at that temp? That should should be a indicator to wether or not it needs to cook longer. I always prob a second spot in what I'm cooking as a rule of thumb. This allows me to do two things, 1- verify that I'm not in a fat pocket that is misleading my probe and 2- see how easy my probe goes in and out. I always no matter temp when I'm cooking to pull use ease of putting probe in or out as deciding factor. Like already stated you want hot knife threw warm butter when checking that way.

djtech2k · Oct 1, 2012

coronaca92879 said:
How easy does your probs pull out when it's at that temp? That should should be a indicator to wether or not it needs to cook longer. I always prob a second spot in what I'm cooking as a rule of thumb. This allows me to do two things, 1- verify that I'm not in a fat pocket that is misleading my probe and 2- see how easy my probe goes in and out. I always no matter temp when I'm cooking to pull use ease of putting probe in or out as deciding factor. Like already stated you want hot knife threw warm butter when checking that way.

So are you saying that with brisket and pork that if the meat probe is not sliding in/out easily, then it needs cooked longer? I hate overdone meat, so I am always worried thats it cooking too long and that it will get tough/flavorless. Because of that, I have just been religiously following the meat probe so that I do not misjudge and pull it too early.

If you cook brisket or pork too long, does it get tough or hard? Even if the temp is right, if its not super tender you think I should let it cook until it gets super tender?

JckDanls 07 · Oct 1, 2012

I haven't heard you or anybody else say to WRAP it in foil with some kind of liquid when it (brisket or butt) reaches about 165` IT.. Then finish cooking WRAPPED until IT is around 180-190 for slicing and 205 or so for pulling... wrapping in foil will braise the meat and make it nice and tender... Just try one that way for a change and see what the results are... thinking you'll like it a lot better

PS. save the juice in the foil to add back to the meat for serving...

djtech2k · Oct 1, 2012

JckDanls 07 said:
I haven't heard you or anybody else say to WRAP it in foil with some kind of liquid when it (brisket or butt) reaches about 165` IT.. Then finish cooking WRAPPED until IT is around 180-190 for slicing and 205 or so for pulling... wrapping in foil will braise the meat and make it nice and tender... Just try one that way for a change and see what the results are... thinking you'll like it a lot better
PS. save the juice in the foil to add back to the meat for serving...

Good point. I actually do that now. I normally put it in an aluminum tray and cook openly for the first few hours. Then, with 1-2 hours left, I cover it with foil for the remaining. I then let the meat rest for a while with it covered.

coronaca92879 · Oct 1, 2012

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. Brisket isn't a ribeye or prime rib. I like my steaks med rare and understand not wanting to over cook (a over cooked steak is tufer). But when doing a brisket its different, if the meat isn't cooked till tender than its gonna be what it is. Theirs a lot of guys on here who only use a tooth pick when smoking brisket. If ur worried about drying it out inject with some butter, beef broth, and a little rub. You can add or take away from that.

smokinhusker · Oct 1, 2012

I have an MES 40 (body unit recently replaced with a newer model). The temp in the old one was 25-40* cooler than what the unit was set for.

I no longer wrap, butts or brisket, in foil at an IT of 160 -165* because we like the bark, and each one has come out very tender. I smoke butts to 200 - 205* and briskets I now only take to 175* or so before removing from the smoker. Both types of meat need low and slow to get the tenderness you are looking for.

If you are going to wrap in foil with some liquid at IT 165*, you can always remove it from the smoker and finish in the oven, since it won't take any more smoke while foiled. I have also partially wrapped at IT 165* and finished in a low temp set crock pot.

I smoked a 9 lb pork butt yesterday on the 3rd rack with an aluminum foil pan beneath to catch the drippings. MES temp was set at 275* and I was getting an actual cabinet temp of 250* on the same rack, with the aluminum foil pan beneath (when I removed the pan, my actual cabinet temp would go up about 15-18*). This is the shortest cooking time I've ever experienced in the MES. The butt reached IT 200* in 16.75 hours. The bone pulled out clean and the meat literally fell apart.

Don't forget if you are injecting the meat, 40* - 140* in 4 hours.

jarjarchef · Oct 2, 2012

Lots of great info has already been given. The thing to remeber is the marbling and quality of the meat do make a diffrence. However when you are cooking a brisket, it is not the same as a NY Strip that is being grilled. You have to cook it till the conective tissue starts to break down (sliced) or totally breaks down (pulled). As mentioned earlier when you wrap and are finishing it that way you are adding moisture to the cooking enviroment and it will braise the meat till done. But no matter what method you choose, in the end the meat is done when it is done...... You will find in the forum all kinds of cooks that have gone either very long or very fast and really no explanation to any of them. As a guide it is 1.5-2 hrs per pound at 225 degrees for pulled anything. And for slicing you are cooking to a temp. What temp is determined by the type, cut and desired doneness. If i was doing a Beef Strip Loin i would go to 130 and let rest for about an hour, however to slice brisket I will shoot for 180-190 depending on how tender it is. Other things that will make a diffrence with how "tender" the meat will appear is how it is sliced. Always cut your slices so it is across the grain. I try to keep it about 1/4" thick for plates, I will go thinner for sandwiches.

As Alesia said: Don't forget if you are injecting the meat, 40* - 140* in 4 hours.

djtech2k · Oct 5, 2012

Thanks all.

So if I am hearing everyone correctly, here is what I am hearing:

- For brisket and pork, just keep cooking it until it gets the "fall apart" tenderness that I want.....Ignore temps.

So I saw one of you mentioned taking brisket out at 165. So should I take it out at 165 or leave it on until 200+? I do prefer to wrap it for a while, so what temp do you guys recommend to wrap a pork butt or brisket?

My pork butts have been pretty good, but not "fall apart" tender. I will plan to just let it cook longer, even if it hits 205, until its tender.

As for the brisket, it has never been even close to "fall apart" tender. So I guess I should leave it on longer also?

My briskets are around 5-7lbs and my pork butts are normally around 5-8lbs.

oldschoolbbq · Oct 15, 2012

All good info. I guess it just comes natural for me , but I love my BBQ :

Betty 004 - Copy (2).JPG

oldschoolbbq
Oct 14, 2012

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oldschoolbbq
Sep 29, 2012

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oldschoolbbq
Sep 26, 2012

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oldschoolbbq
Jul 18, 2012

The biggest factor is "Patience" , I don't wrap or inject and I get a great finish.

Having a well sealed Pit will help too. I try not to open my lid until my temp. is attained (195° to 200°) for Brisket and when the temp. gets to a point the Bone 'slips' out of the Butt, it'll mash to pieces for you. --------"Patience and Perserverence" .

Have fun and...

Trouble With Meat Tenderness...What am I Doing Wrong?

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