Need help with curing

salahaddin · Sep 24, 2012

Hey guys, I want to make cold smoked pork belly. It's basically bacon, however this bacon will NOT be cooked. You can get more info on what I mean on this website http://ckenb.blogspot.ca/2009/11/pork-belly-poitrine-de-porc.html

My questions are:

Should I dry cure or wet cure?

Should I use Cure #1 or #2 (I'm thinking #2 since the meat won't be cooked)?

I can easily cold smoke below 60F, is 10h enough or should I leave it for longer?

If you guys can think of anything else please feel free to share any advice you may have. I've been looking around the forums, but I can't seem to find any useful recipe or instructions, if someone can point me to such a thread I would really appreciate it.

On a different note, my grandparents are from Eastern Europe and I've been told that they never use any Nitrites when curing, instead they just make a brine with 150g kosher salt per 1L of water and let it cure for 2-5 weeks depending on the size of the cut. Is this a viable method of curing?

BTW, if you haven't tried eating smoked pork belly "raw" I highly suggest it, have a bit of yellow mustard or Dijon, it's DIVINE!!!!

s2k9k · Sep 24, 2012

There has to be something here to answer your questions:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/f/2165/bacon

When you get a minute would you stop by Roll Call and introduce yourself so we can give you a warm welcome and if you don't mind would you add your location to your profile, Thanks!

venture · Sep 24, 2012

Way too many questions and answers here than on that blog.

Please be careful to do your research for the reasons of food safety.

Lots of experienced people here to help you.

Good luck and good smoking.

daveomak · Sep 24, 2012

Sal, evening and welcome to the forum..... We have several members that are very good at Charcuterie... I'm sure they will be along to help you in your venture.... Dave

salahaddin · Sep 24, 2012

I'm not exactly sure what this bacon that's meant to be eaten raw is called. I've only found smoked pork belly, and that's too generic and the search only brought up bacon links :( ... normally I like bacons... but this time I don't want to cook the bacons.

venture · Sep 24, 2012

Bacon eaten raw? I am outta here!

salahaddin · Sep 24, 2012

Check out the link, that stuff is great!

linguica · Sep 24, 2012

DUDE.............You need to do some homework on meat curing first. It's not hard to produce quality cured meats at home, but you need to learn to do it right first. That's what this Forum is here for.

People have been home curing for hundreds of years, the ones that do it wrong aren't here anymore. Here is a link to a excellent book. Follow it and you won't go wrong.

diggingdogfarm · Sep 24, 2012

Ventreche is the French name of bacon that is eaten raw, although it's also cooked.

You do need to educate yourself before proceeding, cure must be used when cold smoking to prevent the possibility of deadly botulism.
There are losts of other safety issues involved.

~Martin

salahaddin · Sep 25, 2012

I've read quite a bit on how to smoke bacon, here and on other websites. I know why Cure is used and which situations require #1 and #2.

My questions were specific because I haven't been able to find any recipe or information for "raw" bacon, and the ones for dry sausage and pancetta don't really apply since the meat is not as dry.

If the answers are in Charcuterie or Great Sausage Recipes I will buy those books, I thought that the collective knowledge of SMF would have more practical info on the topic.

------

My other question regarding curing without nitrites was unrelated to what I'm going to do, it's more of a clarification. Since my grandparents and millions of other people have been cold smoking using that technique for hundreds of years, I don't see why it wouldn't be safe method for curing.

daveomak · Sep 25, 2012

Sal, morning.... You are mixing methods and techniques.... your questions and statements are leading me to believe you are not fully informed on using cures and do not understand the dangers associated with curing.... Yes, hundreds of years ago things were done differently and until salt that had nitrates was used (naturally occurring) folks died (Linguica thank you) .... the master smoker that was lucky enough to stumble on nitrated salt, stayed in business because his customers were alive....

If the answers are in Charcuterie or Great Sausage Recipes I will buy those books (Good Idea) , I thought that the collective knowledge of SMF would have more practical info on the topic.

There is a lot of "practical" knowledge on this site.... Most folks, like myself, have purchased books for a learning tool and reference tool in the future... It is impossible to remember everything about smoking, curing and charcuterie...

Start with the books and reading what folks have put together in threads on this site... there is a wealth of information in both..

Dave

salahaddin · Sep 25, 2012

DaveOmak said:
Sal, morning.... You are mixing methods and techniques.... your questions and statements are leading me to believe you are not fully informed on using cures and do not understand the dangers associated with curing.... Yes, hundreds of years ago things were done differently and until salt that had nitrates was used (naturally occurring) folks died (Linguica thank you) .... the master smoker that was lucky enough to stumble on nitrated salt, stayed in business because his customers were alive....

Morning Dave,

I'm not planning on curing the meat using salt only, I will most definitely use nitrites in the cure mix, this was never an issue.

However I have been wondering if nitrite free curing was possible (unrelated to what I want to do, more of a general knowledge question). I think this is what brought on all the confusion.

s2k9k · Sep 25, 2012

salahaddin said:
I've read quite a bit on how to smoke bacon, here and on other websites. I know why Cure is used and which situations require #1 and #2.

My questions were specific because I haven't been able to find any recipe or information for "raw" bacon, and the ones for dry sausage and pancetta don't really apply since the meat is not as dry.

If the answers are in Charcuterie or Great Sausage Recipes I will buy those books, I thought that the collective knowledge of SMF would have more practical info on the topic.

------

My other question regarding curing without nitrites was unrelated to what I'm going to do, it's more of a clarification. Since my grandparents and millions of other people have been cold smoking using that technique for hundreds of years, I don't see why it wouldn't be safe method for curing.

There is a wealth of knowledge on here, with over 40,000 members and over 800,000 posts. You just started this thread less than 12 hours ago and have had 10 replies, Hang in there you will get more help. I know most people on here are very concerned with safety and that is why they are saying to take it slow and do a lot of research, it's not something you can get all the answers in a few hours. I know the responses you have gotten is because they are truly concerned and want to make sure you do it safely!

fpnmf · Sep 25, 2012

I smoke at 100...could easily change that to less or whatever you choose.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/124885/bacon-made-the-easy-way

diggingdogfarm · Sep 25, 2012

salahaddin said:
I've read quite a bit on how to smoke bacon, here and on other websites. I know why Cure is used and which situations require #1 and #2.

Then why did you ask the following question above?

salahaddin said:
Should I use Cure #1 or #2 (I'm thinking #2 since the meat won't be cooked)?

Then you asked....

salahaddin said:
On a different note, my grandparents are from Eastern Europe and I've been told that they never use any Nitrites when curing, instead they just make a brine with 150g kosher salt per 1L of water and let it cure for 2-5 weeks depending on the size of the cut. Is this a viable method of curing?

salahaddin said:
My other question regarding curing without nitrites was unrelated to what I'm going to do, it's more of a clarification. Since my grandparents and millions of other people have been cold smoking using that technique for hundreds of years, I don't see why it wouldn't be safe method for curing.

Salt curing has it's place, but not when cold smoking.

salahaddin said:
I thought that the collective knowledge of SMF would have more practical info on the topic.

You've got much more studying to do!!!

I know that there are many folks around the world who ignore the cardinal rule of meat curing and smoking at low temperatures, that being …..”If it can’t be cured (with nitrate/nitrite), don’t smoke it.”

When smoking at less than 160-180 degrees F (some say more), cure should always be used!

Please be aware of the risks.

Clostridium botulinum bacteria need moisture, warm temperatures and the absence of oxygen to thrive. Those conditions are prevalent in a smoker when cold or warm smoking, where incoming air is kept at a minimum in order for the wood to smolder.

Botulism is a rare, but serious, often deadly, illness caused by Clostridium botulinum bacteria.

Nitrate and nitrite, are the ONLY reliable botulism preventatives!

“The foods most commonly contaminated are home-canned vegetables, cured pork and ham, smoked or raw fish, and honey or corn syrup.”

http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/botulism/overview.html

Clostridium botulinum bacterium is present nearly everywhere that isn’t sterile or well sanitized, and while there may be more danger in smoking something like sausages without proper care and cure, the danger is still present with whole muscle meats.
People smoke in numerous ways in numerous containers at numerous smoke and oxygen levels, it’s impossible to accurately know if there’s enough oxygen to stay safe.

While the risk of deadly botulism may be small, the danger is great.

It’s akin to driving without a seat belt, you may get away with it for 30 years or tomorrow you may meet tragedy.

It’s not worth the gamble considering the small cost of a tiny bit of nitrite/nitrate.

Back to the bacon.......

Raw bacon is dry cured, brining would be counter productive.

Smoke to taste.

I strongly recommend that you get a good thorough and up to date book on meat curing before proceding.

Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages is the best bang for the buck.......

~Martin

chef jimmyj · Sep 25, 2012

First off to answer your question about Grandpa's Bacon and such...YES an Internal Salt Brine concentration of 10% or more in Bacon is considered Nitrite Free Cured. Grandpa's Brine is 15% and I would be confident that after 2-5 weeks the Internal Concentration would have reached a sufficient 10% or higher in a Pork Belly. See http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Bacon_and_Food_Safety/index.asp#12

But as others have stated use a Cure!

Next like any Raw Cured and Dried Pork...Prosciutto, Pancetta, Coppa, and Lardo. Properly Cured and Dried Pork Belly (Bacon) can be eaten Raw. As the others have stated this can be Safely done once you learn the Technique. The product you wish too make will most likely use a combination of Salt and Cure #2 and will be very similar to Italian Pancetta, with or without, the Herbs and Spices except you will be Smoking It. I suggest you follow this Recipe for Pancetta...No Curing Cabinet needed! http://curedmeats.blogspot.com/2008/08/pancetta-easiest-cured-meat-of-all.html as Jason Molinari uses ingredients,Cures specifically, in the well documented amounts and follows tested and Safe procedures.

This is tricky stuff and must be done right but you are on the right track with doing the Research and asking the right questions. Good Luck and Be Safe...JJ

diggingdogfarm · Sep 25, 2012

Just to clarify, Internal brine concentration is calculated as 100 times the salt concentration divided by the sum of the salt and water concentrations.
PERCENT BRINE = 100 × [SALT] / ([SALT] + [WATER])
The meat requires a certain level of salt and drying to reach an acceptable brine concentration.
Determining brine concentration is something that requires analysis, it can't be estimated.

~Martin

kryinggame · Sep 25, 2012

Venture said:
Bacon eaten raw? I am outta here!

lol

I'm right behind you.

chef jimmyj · Sep 25, 2012

Ooops...Thanks Martin. 100 X 150 / 1150 = 13% Brine. As Martin points out, while Grandpa lived long enough to be a Grandpa doesn't guarantee his procedure is 100% safe. Chemical analysis would be interesting but most likely cost prohibitive to find out if his Bacon reached a sufficient concentration. That is why using a Nitrite or Nitrate Cure has become the currently accepted safe procedure...JJ

gotarace · Sep 25, 2012

Here is a thread with some conversation about the bacon you refer to...now i will step out of the room

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/103229/ready-to-eat-bacon

Len

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