Smoking - Fixed time, what temperature?

banjo · Jul 28, 2012

I'm going to be doing something a little different tomorrow from my usual approach. Over the years, I've experimented, and come to a temperature and time that works for me, to make the bbq that I want. I cook mine for 24 hours or so, at around 190 dF or so, depending on the smoker I happen to be using at that time.

Here's my dilemma/question: I've got a friend that wants to use my smoker tomorrow to cook a butt he's picking up at Costco (skinless, boneless). This will come in at around 8-9 lbs or so (they come 2 to a package, but I'm taking the other one). He's on a bit of a deadline. He wants to cook this in about 6 hours.

For smoking a 8-9 # butt for 6 hours, I don't have a clue what temperature to suggest he cooks at. He's wanting to have pulled pork after it's all said and done.

Questions:

Can you make a recommendation for temperature that will result in pullable meat in 6 hours?
If I have him split it up into three (3) sections (about 3# each), so it will come up to temperature sooner (also, more bark ;-), what's your thought on this, and your suggested temperature?

Thanks everybody!

daveomak · Jul 28, 2012

Banjo, afternoon..... I like the idea of split into 3 sections..... Rub and all the goodies.... I would cook them at 300 and foil at 205.... Almost guaranteed done in 6 hours..... Then you have some data for future PP butts.... Dave

banjo · Jul 28, 2012

DaveOmak,

Hate to be slow and dense (OK, I'm a brick), but I don't understand what this means:

"[color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]I would cook them at 300 and foil at 205"[/color]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Cooking at 300 I understand, and foil I understand, but I don't understand the reference to 205. My meat won't be this hot, and my smoker will be above this, so what does this refer to?[/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Thanks![/font]

scarbelly · Jul 28, 2012

What Dave was referring to on the 205 was the IT (internal temp) of the meat

chef jimmyj · Jul 28, 2012

Dave is talking about Smoking the Pork at 300*F until it gets to 205*F IT. Which is the temp at which pork pulls easily. Foiling at 205*F with a rest 30-60 minutes will pretty much Guarantee Fall apart Pulled Pork. At 300*F 3Lb Butts will get to 205*F somewhere between 4-5 hours, it should have a nice Bark, then Foil and rest 1 hour. Wrapping in a towel will hold sufficient heat to tenderize but allow enough cooling to handle...JJ

banjo · Jul 28, 2012

WOW!!! I have never cooked my meat to an internal temperature that hot! Doesn't that render out all of the fat?

scarbelly · Jul 28, 2012

The recommended temps for a Butt are 190 for slicing and 205 for pulling and no it does not render out the fat. We recommend wrapping in foil then into a towel for at least 30 minutes to redistribute the juices. If it finishes early you can put them into a cooler filled with towels and they will hold for several hours and still be too hot to pull by hand

dragonmaster194 · Jul 28, 2012

Great advice guys, I need a thermometer now. I have just been cooking to time and they have turned out ok. I will be ordering my amnps next week and I see I can get thermometers from there. I'll do my butts to 205 IT from now on. Thanks, Steve

scarbelly · Jul 28, 2012

Dragonmaster194 said:
Great advice guys, I need a thermometer now. I have just been cooking to time and they have turned out ok. I will be ordering my amnps next week and I see I can get thermometers from there. I'll do my butts to 205 IT from now on. Thanks, Steve

You can save some $ by ordering the Maverick from Todd too

dragonmaster194 · Jul 28, 2012

Thanks Scar, that is my plan, I have heard a lot of good things about them. About time to fine tune my techniques. Hopefully it will improve my smokes. Steve

banjo · Jul 28, 2012

Hey thanks guys! Really appreciate it! Lots different than my usual method but for this special case I will give it a go!

cliffcarter · Jul 28, 2012

Banjo said:
WOW!!! I have never cooked my meat to an internal temperature that hot! Doesn't that render out all of the fat?

You have never cooked to that internal temp because you cook at 190°F. I'm guessing that because of the very low cook temps and resulting long cook times your pork is done at about 175°-180°.

Myron Mixon cooks at 350°-375° in his water smoker and gets his butts done in 6 hours. If I were you I'd cook it whole at those temps and start checking the internal temp after 4 hours.

banjo · Jul 28, 2012

hey cliiffcarter!

Met Nixon at several of the big pig jigs. Really nice guy.

The purpose of a water smoker is to control the temperature, holding at 212 or so (1 deg less for every 500 ft above sea level).

A water smoker cooks the meat at 212 (adjusted for altitude). The meat is not being cooked at those 300 deg temps - that's for heating the water.

Same thing on a bullet webber water smoker.

I've got lots of thermocouple data on the internal temp of the meat along with controlled tests to see how long it takes for pork to become pull able from about 140 and up.

So lower and longer still yields pull able just a lot later than the 6 hours I needed.

Thanks again!

rowdyrawhide · Jul 28, 2012

The water may help with keeping the meat moist, but that is even arguable because I have dried out plenty of brisketts in my early days on my WSM. The water is more of a heat sync to help prevent temp spikes. Myron says he uses the water smoker for the moisture. Trust me, I can get my weber over 350 if I leave all of the vents open, that is the temp at grate level and a full water pan.......although it won't stay full for long at that temp. Not trying burn ya here just telling you form experience. As far as finishing a butt in 6 hrs I too would opt for the 300-350* range.

banjo · Jul 28, 2012

RowdyRawhide,

Totally agree with you. [color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]The purpose of a water smoker is to control the temperature, holding at 212 or so (1 deg less for every 500 ft above sea level).[/color]

Except for the comment about keeping the meat moist. A water smoker doesn't do that.

As you increase the temperature of the meat through cooking, the pressure builds up inside of the meat. The cells expand and rupture when it gets to the point where the cell's elasticity can't accommodate the swollen membrane; it ruptures, and the increase pressure pushes it out of the meat.

You might be able to push water moisture into a cooking piece of meat in a pressure cooker, where it can overcome the internal pressure of the meat, but not otherwise.

Ever notice, when you are cooking meat without a water smoker, that fluids come out of the meat? That's the pressure causing that. Simple water vapor from an open water pan isn't going to overcome that.

A water smoker like Myrons is set up differently than a webber bullet water smoker. I've seen his rig up close. I've never used one. As I understand it, the smoke comes up and through the water, where it is cooled, before going on to the meat. So since water is held at 212 (or adjusted for altitude), then the smoke coming up through the water will drop to 212 too. Excess heat will be removed in the form of water vapor, but it will be at or below 212. If I recall correctly, they've got a wall where the water vapor condenses inside the smoker, and is drained back to the water tank - it isn't allowed to pass on to cook the meat or bath it in water vapor. I haven't torn one down, but that's my understanding of how it works from talking with other contestants at the Big Pig Jig, where Myron competes.

Anyway, thanks for the fun!

cliffcarter · Jul 28, 2012

Originally Posted by Banjo

Perhaps you could share some of it with us

s2k9k · Jul 28, 2012

I would really like to see the mechanics of that smoker because I am having a hard time understanding how smoke can "come up and through the water".

rowdyrawhide · Jul 28, 2012

Banjo said:
RowdyRawhide,

Totally agree with you. [color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]The purpose of a water smoker is to control the temperature, holding at 212 or so (1 deg less for every 500 ft above sea level).[/color]

Except for the comment about keeping the meat moist. A water smoker doesn't do that.

As you increase the temperature of the meat through cooking, the pressure builds up inside of the meat. The cells expand and rupture when it gets to the point where the cell's elasticity can't accommodate the swollen membrane; it ruptures, and the increase pressure pushes it out of the meat.

You might be able to push water moisture into a cooking piece of meat in a pressure cooker, where it can overcome the internal pressure of the meat, but not otherwise.

Ever notice, when you are cooking meat without a water smoker, that fluids come out of the meat? That's the pressure causing that. Simple water vapor from an open water pan isn't going to overcome that.

A water smoker like Myrons is set up differently than a webber bullet water smoker. I've seen his rig up close. I've never used one. As I understand it, the smoke comes up and through the water, where it is cooled, before going on to the meat. So since water is held at 212 (or adjusted for altitude), then the smoke coming up through the water will drop to 212 too. Excess heat will be removed in the form of water vapor, but it will be at or below 212. If I recall correctly, they've got a wall where the water vapor condenses inside the smoker, and is drained back to the water tank - it isn't allowed to pass on to cook the meat or bath it in water vapor. I haven't torn one down, but that's my understanding of how it works from talking with other contestants at the Big Pig Jig, where Myron competes.

Anyway, thanks for the fun!

Hmmm, I was under the impression it was a reverse flow type smoker, with RF plate filled with water. I'll have to look into that. However if you are cooking a butt at 212* she is not gonna get to 195* (slicing temp for most so we will use it for now) in six hours......just don't see how it could be done; even at 250* it still takes me a little over an hour per lb to get to 205*, most of the time it takes closer to 1.5 hours per lb in my experience.

Found the website not much info on the mechanics

http://www.jacksoldsouthsmokers.com/

I'll see what else is out there

banjo · Jul 28, 2012

Cliffcarter, just noticed something you said about Myron cooking his meat in 6 hours.

That may be true now, I don't know. That isn't what he was doing at the Big Pig Jig, which is where he started, and where I observed him first in 1996, where he won for the first time, and then off and on through 2011, about 7 times that I went through those years. So the last time I talked to him was about 2008 or so, and he was not cooking for 6 hours at that time. But, things change, so he may have changed his style, but I would be surprised.

Back then, he started his meat in the evenings, the night before the morning 11 am judging.

I know this for a fact, because I was there and talked with him the night before, on most every year that I was there, except for the last couple of years, where he's gotten so well known that he's having to block off access to his smoker.

I also saw all the other smokers cooking, all 200+ of them, and they all started the night before for the 11 am presentation to the judges. Except for the whole pig entrants - they started earlier, much earlier.

I don't think I saw anyone competing, including Myron, who cooked for less than 12 hours, and most appeared to have gone 15 hours for the competition.

And I didn't see anyone cooking above 250, at any time, in the oven chamber, where their meat was located. Most were at 215 - 225.

If you read this far, if you are interested in my posting the controlled temperature and time tests I ran last year to see where pork meat can be pulled, let me know and I'll post it. It's pretty dry - pardon the pun!

The tests were how long, once meat comes up to a given temperature, how long before it is pullable. It's not including the time to get the meat up to the specified temperature; instead, once at the specified temperature, how long will it take at that temperature before it is pullable.

Without looking at the data, I believe I started at 140 dF for the first test, then each subsequent test was bumped up by 10 dF (e.g., next test at 150 dF), until I got up to 200 or so for the meat.

BTW - looked up pork fat melting temperature on wiki; it says, depending on the type of fat, it melts at 84 - 118 dF. So it appears some fat is being lost from the pork at the higher temperature of 205.

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I appreciate everyone's help and suggestion on my request for times to cook for 6 hours. Very much appreciated. I'm new around this forum, but not new to smoking bbq. I hope no one has taken offense at anything I've said, because none is intended. I appreciate all the comments and have enjoyed the discussion. And where I'm wrong, I look forward to finding out, because it will remove an obstacle that might be preventing me from cooking the best bbq possible![/font]

dragonmaster194 · Jul 28, 2012

Hello Banjo, I would be interested in seeing your stats, I am new, kinda, and any info that would help improve my que would be much appreciated. Thanks, Steve

Smoking - Fixed time, what temperature?

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