Jerky ? What temp.

forluvofsmoke · Apr 14, 2012

Yeah, 90* drying temp without cure? I'd run from that one, or else I may be running to the porcelain goddess!

OK, here's what I came up with:

If you like the marinade recipe you're using now, and are firm in continuing with that flavor profile while maintaining a similar or identical sodium content when switching to a wet-cure, you'll need to know exactly how much salt is added per pound of meat separately (if any additional table salt or kosher salt is used) along with how much you are adding with the worsty/soy and any other products.

You need to find similar values of measurement in order to create a formulation. Proceeded as follows:

1) on the nutritional values label, find the sodium content per serving (will be listed as mg or g...hopefully not the latter) and the serving size (will be listed as tsp or Tbsp) on the labels of your worsty/soy/ketchup/Bbq sauce bottles and any spice blends (these usually have added sodium) you are using. Total these amounts;

2) convert this measurement from mg/serving into mg/lb, by multiplying by the amount you add to the marinade per lb of meat;

3) convert the above into measure by volume per the conversion table below (unless you use a scale for weight instead of measure of your marinade additives);

4) find your overall combined sodium used per pound. This is your baseline sodium content to follow in order to formulate a wet-cure recipe and maintain near/exact sodium content in the wet-cure recipe.

5) make any reductions in sodium with low-salt products by re-calculating for the beginning of the wet-cure recipe, then add recommended cure of your choice, per pound measure (convert to g/mg as needed). This is your new sodium content per pound. Compare with original. If still too high, find more reduced salt products and/or remove added salt and reformulate.

Conversions:

1 fl oz = 2 Tbsp (edit)

1 Tbsp = 0.5oz dry-salt (edit)

3 tsp = 1 Tbsp

1 ounce = 28.35 grams (g)

1 gram = 1,000 milligrams (mg)

Salt weighs 0.5oz (14.175g) / (14,750 mg) per (level) Tablespoon

So, this should bring everything onto the table, and you/we can dissect what's going into the recipe for sodium to replace some of the currently used sodium with a cure-mix and keep it close to, if not identical when the recipe is converted from your current brine/marinade to a wet-cure.

Now, there is one possible issue which could bite us here, and that is the fact that you have so much added sauce/liquid. I have to wonder it a cure will still work properly with all that going on, but if there isn't a whole lot of free liquid with the meat when everything is in there mixed up, it could still be a viable process. I may need to get a moderator or two on this and see what they think.

Anyway, the above process to convert and calculate should cover that end...hopefully the cure will work with the other ingredients...that may be the question of the day.

EDIT: I just asked myself that question and don't see a problem with it because of some of my wet-cures for corned beef pastrami were very heavily laden with spices...not a paste, but very dark with a lot of solids in the solution, and the end results were beatiful, with fully cured meat, so I think we're good to go. It will take some extra time over what a clear wet-cure solution will require.

Eric

Had a couple brain farts on the conversion chart, or typos...anyway, fixed it.

ritamcd · Apr 14, 2012

OK ... Let me try and figure this ..

240 mg

11570 mg

18400 mg

3040 mg

16320 mg

a total of 49570 mg of sodium per about 15-20 average of jerky that I generally make .. which would be 49.57 G of salt... which would then be 3.3 TBSP salt added it total ?

UMMMMM I think you totally lost me

forluvofsmoke · Apr 14, 2012

I made a couple edits above, but what we need is a break-down so you use the same amount of mix and cure additive per pound. This is important for curing, as you cure the meat by weight and use the same amount as recommended on the package label. The mix or other ingredients should be the same for uniformity between batches, so weights of meat and measures or weights of everything else used are important.

Oh, that brings up another question, do you have a food scale? Maybe a 5 or 6lb capacity or larger? When you trim the meat and slice it up, you get a weight of the total batch of meat, then add cure and other ingredients accordingly.

RitaMcD said:
OK ... Let me try and figure this ..

240 mg

11570 mg

18400 mg

3040 mg

16320 mg

a total of 49570 mg of sodium per about 15-20 average of jerky that I generally make .. which would be 49.57 G of salt... which would then be 3.3 TBSP salt added it total ?

UMMMMM I think you totally lost me

Sorry, might have botched you up there. Let me go back and check you math so I know if you're following it.

Eric

forluvofsmoke · Apr 14, 2012

RitaMcD said:
OK ... Let me try and figure this ..

240 mg

11570 mg

18400 mg

3040 mg

16320 mg

a total of 49570 mg of sodium per about 15-20 average of jerky that I generally make .. which would be 49.57 G of salt... which would then be 3.3 TBSP salt added it total ?

UMMMMM I think you totally lost me

I ran a 3.497 Tbsp of sodium from the above.

Eric

ritamcd · Apr 14, 2012

Yes I have a food scale up to 11lbs and a small lab scale also .. I do a LOT of canning so I need the scale often in the summer time ..

NOPE I just add the same amount of my basic marinade and eye the amount of meat ... let it set in the fridge for 2 days and put it in the dehydrator for about 7 hours on usually 160 .. but given my crumble issue I put it down to 150 this time and it took longer but came out much better ..

ritamcd · Apr 14, 2012

OK so it wasn't too far off .. SOOO what do I need to do ..

My brain hurts

I am sure this isn't what my husband expects on a weekend he is gone

and if I add cure ... How much longer would it preserve the meat ?

forluvofsmoke · Apr 14, 2012

RitaMcD said:
OK so it wasn't too far off .. SOOO what do I need to do ..

My brain hurts

I am sure this isn't what my husband expects on a weekend he is gone

and if I add cure ... How much longer would it preserve the meat ?

OK, the totals of all ingredients that you will add to one pound of meat...take that total sodium content (have to break it down to # ounces of liquid from the bottle, etc). Then, you can break it down from there how much sodium needs to be cut in order to use a cure mix (which has a specified amount of salt and is used @ recommended amounts) in your recipe. This will help to keep the same sodium content per pound.

Mostly for the baseline amount of sodium, you just need mg or g weights, which can be converted to tsp or Tbsp measure for when you add the cure to the recipe amount. If you want to keep it the same, then reduce sodium somewhere, and replace with the salt in the cure additive.

What I see you doing for previous recipes is kind of a loose way to go about your marinating, and that's fine, as long as your meat is coated or covered, it will do it's job.

When a cure additive comes into the picture, you need reasonably accurate measurements of the marinade ingredients and cure additives to be added to a known measurement of meat, as the cure additives can be toxic if no controls are used and too much cure is added.

For purposes of repeatability and ease of measurement, a per pound (of meat) or per 10 pounds and so on is used for sausage mixes as well as other curing. For smaller batch sizes, and especially where you may have an odd number of pounds of trimmed and cut meat, and/or fraction/decimal measures, a per pound formulation makes finishing the recipe easier, as you can calculate the remainder of the fraction/decimal of weighed meat and use it all in one batch for the best uniformity.

When you trim and cut the meat, you will have loss of weight...normal. If you use previously frozen meat, you will have additional loss, due to the liquid in the package after thawing. So the final step before adding cure and other ingredients is to weight the meat. You could use a per 10 or 20 lb recipe and trim up a bunch of meat and hope you get close on the weight (keep trimming and cutting until you have the batch quantity), but it's not really practical from a home-curing stand-point, IMHO, unless you knew you had more meat than you needed, fresh from the store or fresh harvested animal...then you could trim and cut whatever batch size of meat you wanted and have the additional ingredients pre-measured and ready to go...it's just not a good idea with cure additives.

With jerky, the cure itself isn't so much what preserves the meat (in this case jerky) as far as the finished product. Cure and smoke both act to inhibit bacteria in finished product, but not as much as the lack of moisture. The drying is what keeps the critters away. The cure keeps the critters away while the meat is drying. Cure # 1 and Morton's Tender Quick basically stop/kill the bacteria (if present), so that while the meat is raised in temperature from fridge temp during smoking/drying through what we refer to as the danger zone, or 40-140*F, they cannot do their dirty work. While in the danger zone, many bacteria will thrive, multiply and leave behind waste products which are toxic (this makes you sick). Even if the bacteria were killed when the meat reaches a fully cooked temperature, the toxins are still there. Cure, when properly used, prevents this from happening.

The shelf life of jerky isn't so much effected by the cure as it is by the moisture content. Bacteria need moisture and warmth to thrive, and when meat is dried properly, bacteria aren't as likely to become active in the product (without post-processing contamination).

RitaMcD said:
Yes I have a food scale up to 11lbs and a small lab scale also .. I do a LOT of canning so I need the scale often in the summer time ..

NOPE I just add the same amount of my basic marinade and eye the amount of meat ... let it set in the fridge for 2 days and put it in the dehydrator for about 7 hours on usually 160 .. but given my crumble issue I put it down to 150 this time and it took longer but came out much better ..

If you have a food scale, you're pretty much set to go for curing meats. That's a big plus. I've never dried jerky without cure, but have very little texture problems...either drying time and temp is right for the conditions at the time, or I check it frequently enough near the end to avoid it. Not sure if curing can help prevent texture issues or not.

Eric

ritamcd · Apr 14, 2012

OK so next time I make a batch .. which is usually around the 20 lb zone because that's what my dehydrator will hold approx .. Think I will get a digital scale for the larger amounts so I can get the actual weight because the one I have is one with the needle thing ... I will measure everything I put in.. Measure the meat first after trimmed .. which by the way I do have a slicer for uniform slices .. I usually use round eye roast .. Its called different everywhere tho ;p or top round if its on sale ..

My meats are always totally submerged in the brine / marinade to the point you can only see the marinade on top .. because I know that's how germs get into your food also ..

I don't know if it makes a difference or not but I do keep it in the freezer .. take a small bag out here and there for us .. but its kept in the deep freeze till we finish it all up . .

Then we can do more math

diggingdogfarm · Apr 14, 2012

You may want to consider calculating what's required per kilogram of meat, that way you can scale your recipe much more accurately and easily.

1 kilo of Beef Strips
1/2 tsp. Cure#1 (2.5 grams)

Then determine what you need for your other ingredients (in grams) so that it's not too salty, but keeping your proportions the same.

I've converted all of my recipes to one kilo batches, it's made things a lot easier.

Just a thought.....

~Martin

ritamcd · Apr 14, 2012

That's a great thought Martin but I will stay with what I know .. with short term memory disorder I have to KNOW what I am doing or it leaks out quite fast

really I have measurement charts every where ... and still have to look at them everyday

Its SOOOO annoying ..

forluvofsmoke · Apr 14, 2012

RitaMcD said:
That's a great thought Martin but I will stay with what I know .. with short term memory disorder I have to KNOW what I am doing or it leaks out quite fast

really I have measurement charts every where ... and still have to look at them everyday

Its SOOOO annoying ..

That funny! Well, to joke about it anyway, but I have a pretty good idea what you mean. I've found myself doing some pretty weird things lately that I could not explain to myself...just simple stuff that required little to no real focus, but I still couldn't stay on track. Is that bad? Maybe just too many distractions and too much multitasking...I hope so. Ha-ha!

RitaMcD said:
OK so next time I make a batch .. which is usually around the 20 lb zone because that's what my dehydrator will hold approx .. Think I will get a digital scale for the larger amounts so I can get the actual weight because the one I have is one with the needle thing ... I will measure everything I put in.. Measure the meat first after trimmed .. which by the way I do have a slicer for uniform slices .. I usually use round eye roast .. Its called different everywhere tho ;p or top round if its on sale ..

My meats are always totally submerged in the brine / marinade to the point you can only see the marinade on top .. because I know that's how germs get into your food also ..

I don't know if it makes a difference or not but I do keep it in the freezer .. take a small bag out here and there for us .. but its kept in the deep freeze till we finish it all up . .

Then we can do more math

There ya go, I was going to suggest just weighing 3 or 4 parts of the total batch and adding together, but if it will save you some headache and time, go bigger. I have a 30lb capacity digital postal scale...very accurate, and weighs down to 0.2oz. I do see already where we can probably cut back on some salt just by cutting down on some of volume of the wet from your list if we need to. Between that and going to low/reduced-sodium products, it can be done. For my wet cures, they're barely wet, and have no free liquid after it's cured.

Freezing is the best way for longer-term storage. Just leave the package out at room temp so it warms up before opening, then you don't get water vapor from the air condensing inside package upon opening. I sometimes take the thawed jerky (should say warmed, not much moisture in it to actually freeze) and store in the fridge if it's for just a couple days, but wouldn't recommend it for very long as mold loves cool dark places. We've had some out at room temp after opening for over a week without issues...just keep it compressed to remove as much air as possible and zipped closed when not munching away.

DiggingDogFarm said:
You may want to consider calculating what's required per kilogram of meat, that way you can scale your recipe much more accurately and easily.

1 kilo of Beef Strips
1/2 tsp. Cure#1 (2.5 grams)

Then determine what you need for your other ingredients (in grams) so that it's not too salty, but keeping your proportions the same.

I've converted all of my recipes to one kilo batches, it's made things a lot easier.

Just a thought.....

~Martin

I was considering doing that awhile back, but I have a ton of recipes to convert...would need to have some software or write up a spreed sheet of my own to do it on...then a lot of extra time on my hands. Thing is, I spend all my spare time here, so that would take me away from one of my bigger hobbies of helping folks out here. I'll only do it you promise not to miss me a couple months...LOL!!!

Eric

ritamcd · Apr 14, 2012

That funny! Well, to joke about it anyway, but I have a pretty good idea what you mean. I've found myself doing some pretty weird things lately that I could not explain to myself...just simple stuff that required little to no real focus, but I still couldn't stay on track. Is that bad? Maybe just too many distractions and too much multitasking...I hope so. Ha-ha!

Yeah its bad for me ... I feel as if I am constantly chasing my tail around trying to complete a task

and yeah it can get embarrassing sometimes ..

I have NO clue how to use the multi quote feature

There ya go, I was going to suggest just weighing 3 or 4 parts of the total batch and adding together, but if it will save you some headache and time, go bigger. I have a 30lb capacity digital postal scale...very accurate, and weighs down to 0.2oz. I do see already where we can probably cut back on some salt just by cutting down on some of volume of the wet from your list if we need to. Between that and going to low/reduced-sodium products, it can be done. For my wet cures, they're barely wet, and have no free liquid after it's cured.

I only ordered an 11 lber way thinner than the one I have now .. it will save much space in the kitchen .. but it will also be useful it also does grams etc ...

But if I could cut down on some of the salt and ingredents that have a lot of MSG in them I would be happy ..I don't eat much of the jerky because it is high in MSG from the soy and Worch.

you like science stuff you should try making cheese

forluvofsmoke · Apr 15, 2012

RitaMcD said:
That funny! Well, to joke about it anyway, but I have a pretty good idea what you mean. I've found myself doing some pretty weird things lately that I could not explain to myself...just simple stuff that required little to no real focus, but I still couldn't stay on track. Is that bad? Maybe just too many distractions and too much multitasking...I hope so. Ha-ha!

Yeah its bad for me ... I feel as if I am constantly chasing my tail around trying to complete a task

and yeah it can get embarrassing sometimes ..

Dang, sorry to hear that. I'm not having it bite me like that, just little miniscule things now and then for me...like forgetting to fully proof-read or use spell checker before I submit a reply, causing me to edit a dozen times before I finally get it all straight...some of those DUH!!! moments.

I have NO clue how to use the multi quote feature

Just click the multi-quote button on all posts you want to quote, then, when you reach the last post to quote, hit multi-quote, then quote, and the reply box will load with all the quotes, and then you can mouse and click where you want to begin writing, The quote button is what loads everything to the reply box.

There ya go, I was going to suggest just weighing 3 or 4 parts of the total batch and adding together, but if it will save you some headache and time, go bigger. I have a 30lb capacity digital postal scale...very accurate, and weighs down to 0.2oz. I do see already where we can probably cut back on some salt just by cutting down on some of volume of the wet from your list if we need to. Between that and going to low/reduced-sodium products, it can be done. For my wet cures, they're barely wet, and have no free liquid after it's cured.

I only ordered an 11 lber way thinner than the one I have now .. it will save much space in the kitchen .. but it will also be useful it also does grams etc ...

But if I could cut down on some of the salt and ingredents that have a lot of MSG in them I would be happy ..I don't eat much of the jerky because it is high in MSG from the soy and Worch.

Oh, MSG sux big time...but then, you already know that (there's another DUH!!! moment...LOL!) or you wouldn't have mentioned it. I may be able to help you work on that as well, Say, since this falls into the category, if you haven't dropped by the (click on the link) Groups Furums, the YAWYE Group (You Are What You Eat) is a healthy foods and cooking discussion group which could also give a more direct line of info from the members who joined that group, I haven't taken the time to visit there lately, but I'm sure if MSG-free products haven't been brought up yet, if you join the group you can post in it. I may get a chance to do some researching more on the topic in the next few weeks and find some alternative products and get them posted if I don't find that someone has covered it already.

you like science stuff you should try making cheese

It's funny you mentioned trying cheese...I have been doing some research on different types of cheese over the past 6-8 months that would be suitable for me with my limited equipment on hand. Of course just simple curds or mozz would be the first on the list, with nothing special required...someday...gotta get my ambition level up a couple more notches first. Then, if I can figure out where to set up for the right environment, I may do some aged cheeses... like you said, science...gotta have the will to do it up right, and find out how, first.

Eric

ritamcd · Apr 15, 2012

I have a recipe for 30 minute Mozzarella .. its a fun process for the kids to watch .. and you can use a gallon of milk from the grocery ..

http://www.cheesemaking.com/howtomakemozzarellacheese.html

and here are a bunch of others as well ..

http://www.cheesemaking.com/recipes/recipedetails.html

this is a local company here in Mass.. and I am lucky enough to be able to buy organic raw milk here as well ..

For your Cheddar and other harder cheeses you will need a press

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Cheese-Press

we are having a big discussion about MSG on my website right now .. And beings I can't be everyplace at once I better stick to my site or I may get in trouble

daveomak · Apr 16, 2012

Rita, morning.... I'm really late to the party ... Sorry .....

You mentioned the jerky being crumbly.... Alton Brown had a show on jerky.... Not impressed with his method but he had a comment about the jerky drying out and getting crumbly...

His "solution" was adding honey to hold some moisture... Honey is hydro or hygro scopic or something like that... can't remember.... anyway this might be a solution for you to think about...

Below are his ratios for stuff he puts into his jerky and if the honey ratio is correct, something to ponder... Eric has you covered on everything else.... I hope I'm not duplicating with this post... I read it all and didn't see honey or sugar mentioned... Dave
[h2]Ingredients[/h2]
concordance-begin

1 1/2 to 2 pounds flank steak
2/3 cup Worcestershire sauce
2/3 cup soy sauce
1 tablespoon honey
2 teaspoons freshly ground black pepper
2 teaspoons onion powder
1 teaspoon liquid smoke
1 teaspoon red pepper flakes

ritamcd · Apr 16, 2012

Thanks Dave !! I actually do add honey and Brown sugar to my recipe .. I really think it was the heat .. AND something I never checked .. If the heat in my dehydrator is correct .. Just thought about that .. better get on it ... It was perfect drying at 150 but 160 was tooo dry and the inside wasn't getting dried enough .. I think slower is better

daveomak · Apr 16, 2012

Rita, afternoon... It was perfect drying at 150 but 160 was tooo dry and the inside wasn't getting dried enough ..

I have heard something close to that, about sausage smoking and drying snack sticks...... Bear with me here.... Once the outside gets dry, and if it dries too fast, it will seal the remaining moisture inside the dried outside casing/pellicle etc.... I know that is true for doing my kippered salmon.... maybe the same for jerky.... OK I haven't finished my first cold one yet so ....

I know where I read it..... Sausage making... like salami etc... that is why they use humidity control.... to keep the exterior moist so it will let the interior moisture move to the exterior to evaporate...

Dave

ritamcd · Apr 16, 2012

Makes perfect sense Dave ... when I had the what was it .. harvest master or something dehydrator small and round it wouldn't get over 130 -140 my jerky was always consistent drying tho . I will keep the temps down a bit

forluvofsmoke · Apr 16, 2012

DaveOmak said:
Rita, afternoon... It was perfect drying at 150 but 160 was tooo dry and the inside wasn't getting dried enough ..

I have heard something close to that, about sausage smoking and drying snack sticks...... Bear with me here.... Once the outside gets dry, and if it dries too fast, it will seal the remaining moisture inside the dried outside casing/pellicle etc.... I know that is true for doing my kippered salmon.... maybe the same for jerky.... OK I haven't finished my first cold one yet so ....

I know where I read it..... Sausage making... like salami etc... that is why they use humidity control.... to keep the exterior moist so it will let the interior moisture move to the exterior to evaporate...

Dave

Exactly what I remember reading, too, Dave. When I made a few batches of heat-treated dried beef salami and chicken salami, I ran a super-low drying temp and s---l---o---w---l---y bumped temps up. This seemed to make a huge difference in how much moisture I could remove from the meat with a forced drying vs just smoking @ 120-140* and bumping up to 180* or so to reach finished temps...seemed like forever to hit the finish line, but man was it ever worth the extra time and effort.

From all the info I've read thus far pertaining to dry-curing of whole muscle meats and dry-curing/fermenting of sausages, humidity is a critical control for that same reason...outside gets too dry too fast and you're done drying the meat. It's an extremely slow process compared to jerky drying, but it's the same basic principle.

Jerky seems to get pretty finicky about faster start-up temps for drying too, so I don't like to push it much at all for the first several hours (EDIT) with cured meat.

Eric

ritamcd · Apr 16, 2012

I totally agree and next time I dry some up I am going to get a little more technical with the whole thing .. I may even impress my husband lol and just try and figure out whats exactly in it

Jerky ? What temp.

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