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Tenderquick to pink salt conversion - Page 2

post #21 of 74
It's unfortunate that you seem to insinuate that I don't know what I'm talking about.
Please don't treat me like a little kid.

First of all, it's not my statement. You quoted it, therefore you stated it.

Yes, I quoted it, but I did not state it, there's a BIG difference.

"What exactly is "very misleading"? Quoting out of context is misleading.. The remainder of the discussion describes how nitrites are safer to use than nitrates."

I quoted to make a single point, that being that pure nitrite is more dangerous than pure nitrate. Nothing more, nothing less.

"Tender Quick contains both nitrite and nitrate and has been used for decades to cure all types of meats.
Yes, and it has a specific place to be used when during meats. That place has been given some leniency, granted, but it was intended to cure meats at higher than refrigerated temps..
Estimating the required amount of Nitrate is harder as it is dependent on:
Temperature (with higher temperature more nitrite is released from Nitrate).
Amount of bacteria present in meat that is needed for Nitrate to produce nitrite and here we do not have any control. The more bacteria present, the more nitrite released. Adding sugar may be beneficial as it provides food for bacteria to grow faster.
"


Specific place? Intended for higher temperatures? TenderQuick contains the proper amounts of nitrate and nitrite for both short term refrigerated curing and extended curing at warmer temperatures (both ground meat and whole cuts, use as directed).

Edited by SausageBoy - 2/11/12 at 4:29pm
post #22 of 74

A chart to clear up several misconceptions:

 

http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?736-Curing-Salts

 

 

post #23 of 74

 Thanks for the link Pops,  that should calm it down a bit in here.

 

 

MORTON TENDER QUICK

and

MORTON SUGAR CURE

 

NOTE: Morton Tender Quick is not a meat tenderizer, or should either be used as a seasoning. These two premixes are essentially the same, and can be used interchangeably. Both are considered fast cures. The difference between the two is that the Sugar Cure has added dextrose and a packet of spice mix. They both contain a combination of high grade salt, sugar, plus both sodium nitrate (.5%) and sodium nitrite (.5%).

Like cure #1, these premix cures have been developed as a cure for meat, poultry, game, fish and sausage that require short curing times, and will be fully cooked. They are NOT interchangeable with cure #1; they measure differently. Unlike cure #1, you don't use any additional salt when making sausage.

NOTE: Morton Tender Quick is not a meat tenderizer, and the Sugar cures are not seasonings. These are cures that only should be used in recipes calling for curing meat fish, and poultry. They can be used in recipes that call for cure #1, but because they are measured differently and the salt they contain, they are not directly interchangeable with cure #1, or cure #2, saltpeter or Morton Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure.

post #24 of 74
As I said above, there's nothing wrong with adapting a recipe either way as long as the rules are followed.

From the link that Pop's posted, concerning Morton TenderQuick and SugarCure.

"They can be used in recipes that call for cure #1, but because they are measured differently and the salt they contain, they are not directly interchangeable with cure #1, or cure #2, saltpeter or Morton Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure."

and

"If replacing Morton Tender Quick for cure #1 in a recipe, do not add the salt that the recipe calls for."
post #25 of 74

polishsmoked.jpg

 

And, that is exactly the conundrum; if using a premix that requires you to add Cure #1, if you substitute TQ®, you cannot remove the excess salt/sugars from the premix without altering the ratio of mix to meat; therefore, TQ® cannot be substituted directly or in any form with premixed seasonings, as shown above.  If you mix your own, and know how TQ® is formulated, and know how much nitrite and nitrate is in the mix, and can separate out those quantities with confidence and stay within maximums and know how much salt and how much sugar to extrapolate from your home made mix, and have reliable sources on the TQ® formulation, then yes, you can subtitute it.  Or, just buy some cure #1: http://www.butcher-packer.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=237_12&products_id=56  it's only $3.50/bag and it lasts a long time and not really worth any more discussion.

 

 And, BTW, all Morton® products are registered trade names, so please add the proper ® when referring to them (easy to do: hold down the ALT key and 10-key   0174 ).

 

Also, for all, this is a post I made several years ago on how to reproportion seasonings to the correct meat weight:

 

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/69518/sausage-prep

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SausageBoy View Post

As I said above, there's nothing wrong with adapting a recipe either way as long as the rules are followed.
From the link that Pop's posted, concerning Morton TenderQuick and SugarCure.
"They can be used in recipes that call for cure #1, but because they are measured differently and the salt they contain, they are not directly interchangeable with cure #1, or cure #2, saltpeter or Morton Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure."
and
"If replacing Morton Tender Quick for cure #1 in a recipe, do not add the salt that the recipe calls for."


 

post #26 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pops6927 View Post

And, that is exactly the conundrum; if using a premix that requires you to add Cure #1, if you substitute TQ, you cannot remove the excess salt/sugars from the premix without altering the ratio of mix to meat; therefore, TQ cannot be substituted directly or in any form with premixed seasoings
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SausageBoy View Post

As I said above, there's nothing wrong with adapting a recipe either way as long as the rules are followed.
From the link that Pop's posted, concerning Morton TenderQuick and SugarCure.
"They can be used in recipes that call for cure #1, but because they are measured differently and the salt they contain, they are not directly interchangeable with cure #1, or cure #2, saltpeter or Morton Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure."
and
"If replacing Morton Tender Quick for cure #1 in a recipe, do not add the salt that the recipe calls for."


 


You're moving the goal post, no one was talking about pre-mixed seasonings.

Anyway...there is no conundrum if you follow the rules.
Obviously, it wouldn't work with salted pre-mixed seasonings because it would violate one of the rules. That being "If replacing Morton Tender Quick for cure #1 in a recipe, do not add the salt that the recipe calls for."
Edited by SausageBoy - 2/11/12 at 5:54pm
post #27 of 74
"And, BTW, all Morton® products are registered trade names, so please add the proper ® when referring to them (easy to do: hold down the ALT key and 10-key 0174 )."

Morton doesn't require anyone to use the ® when mentioning their products. Mentioning a product isn't 'use' of the trademark.

"Trademark Information
All names, logos, trademarks or service marks contained in this Site are registered trademarks owned or licensed by Morton Salt and may not be used without Morton Salt's prior written approval. The registered trademarks of Morton Salt belong exclusively to Morton Salt and are protected by U. S. and international trademark laws and treaties."



How about I just delete all my posts and let the "experts" take over?
post #28 of 74

The vast majority of our members have never used cures and are not familiar with cure procedures.  The Moderator and Administrator teams are responsible with keeping the information on the forum as safe and understandable as possible for all visitors.

 

I do not recommend substituting cures.  Use the cure in the amounts listed in the recipe you are using.   There is no direct substitution of TQ for Cure 1 because TQ has nitrates and Cure 1 does not.

We encourage discussions about recipes that use TQ and we encourage discussions about recipes that use Cure 1.  There are so many great recipes out there we can normally find one that fits what you are trying to do.

 

We have had these types of discussions on the forum before and they always seem to end with someone getting angry and new members mostly just getting confused. 

 

 

post #29 of 74
Pops6927 wrote.....

"Also, for all, this is a post I made several years ago on how to reproportion seasonings to the correct meat weight:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/69518/sausage-prep"


I just read the thread.
I probably shouldn't be questioning one of the resident "experts" here, but there's an error in your post.

"3lbs. of water would be 3x16 or 36 oz., which is 1020.58 grams x .1325, or 135.22 g. - measure 133 grams."

3 lbs. of water is 48 ounces (not 36) or 1360.77711 grams X .1325= 180.302967 grams.
Edited by SausageBoy - 2/12/12 at 5:23am
post #30 of 74

Put it away SausageBoy.   The members you are arguing with have close to 3000 posts each and we all make mistakes in math and grammer.  They are respect for their experience, education and contributions to the forum

post #31 of 74
It sucks to be such a worthless low life here with only 200 posts.
Makes it so easy for others to belittle you.
I've been a butcher for 24 years, I'm far from a beginner.
I'm finished with this thread.
Edited by SausageBoy - 2/11/12 at 7:56pm
post #32 of 74

Thank you very much for pointing out my mistake!  Now corrected!
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SausageBoy View Post

Pops6927 wrote.....
"Also, for all, this is a post I made several years ago on how to reproportion seasonings to the correct meat weight:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/69518/sausage-prep"

I just read the thread.
I probably shouldn't be questioning one of the resident "experts" here, but there's an error in your post.
"3lbs. of water would be 3x16 or 36 oz., which is 1020.58 grams x .1325, or 135.22 g. - measure 133 grams."
3 lbs. of water is 48 ounces (not 36) or 1360.77711 grams X .1325= 180.302967 grams.


 

post #33 of 74
Thread Starter 

OK, wow, I didn't realize this was such a contentious issue.

 

Sausage Boy, I didn't add any salt, THANK GOD. It was still VERY salty, but not too salty. I think this is the most delicious thing I have ever eaten, outside of the pork chops I made the other day. I rendered the fat from back fat, and let it cook at 200 degress. End result was amazing.

 

I looked at chef john's confit videos, and I don't quite get it, seems more like a slow roasted ham.

post #34 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phogi View Post

OK, wow, I didn't realize this was such a contentious issue.

 

Sausage Boy, I didn't add any salt, THANK GOD. It was still VERY salty, but not too salty. I think this is the most delicious thing I have ever eaten, outside of the pork chops I made the other day. I rendered the fat from back fat, and let it cook at 200 degress. End result was amazing.

 

I looked at chef john's confit videos, and I don't quite get it, seems more like a slow roasted ham.



 

It does provoke a lot of emotions but a lot of good theory and science always comes out of these discussions. Ignore the personalities and pay attention to the facts. I always learn something new in these conversations even though they seem a tad adversarial. smile.gif

post #35 of 74

"If replacing Morton Tender Quick for cure #1 in a recipe, do not add the salt that the recipe calls for." huh.gif

 

In this recipe you would use 1Cup of Table Salt(10 oz.) or 16Tbs of Salt... Mortons TQ is a similar consistency, by this premise, you could leave out the Salt and Cure #1 and just add TQ...

 

If you go one for one by Salt, to keep the salinity in recipe as intended, 16Tbs of TQ is an insufficient amount of TQ/Nitrite for 25Lbs of Belly!...Not Good!

 

If you go by the recommended amount of 1Tbs TQ per Pound of belly, as suggested by Cowgirl (resident expert) and other Smoking websites, you should use 25Tbs of TQ, proper amount of Nitrite... But you would have somewhere around 5 1/2 more ounces of Salt and other stuff not intended in the recipe...WAY too much for this specific recipe!...

 

Bottom Line: Recipes are designed for Specific Amounts of Specific Ingredients!...If you are using a recipe that was written by someone who knows what they are doing...Follow it as written for Critical ingredients like Cure...There is no way to easily alternate between Cure #1 and TQ...JJ

 

 

Dry box bacon (2).jpg


Edited by Chef JimmyJ - 2/12/12 at 1:32pm
post #36 of 74
Chef JimmyJ wrote....

"If you go by the recommended amount of 1Tbs TQ per Pound of belly, as suggested by Cowgirl (resident expert) and other Smoking websites, you should use 25Tbs of TQ, proper amount of Nitrite... But you would have somewhere around 5 1/2 more ounces of Salt and other stuff not intended in the recipe...WAY too much for this specific recipe!..."

46

I said I was done with this thread , but I can't just let this go.

What you have posted (highlighted above) is blatantly incorrect.

Tender Quick is 79% salt.
1 level tablespoon of Tender Quick weighs 1/2 an ounce.
25 level tablespoons of Tender Quick for 25 lbs. of bacon would be 12.5 ounces of Tender Quick.
12.5 ounces X .79= 9.875 ounces of salt for 25 lbs. of bacon, which is substantially LESS salt than what's called for in that recipe, but still effective.

Again, if you follow the proper directions and rules, many recipes can easily and safely be converted.
Edited by SausageBoy - 2/12/12 at 2:44pm
post #37 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by SausageBoy View Post

.
 9.875 ounces of salt for 25 lbs. of bacon, which is substantially LESS salt than what's called for in that recipe, but still effective.
Again, if you follow the proper directions and rules, many recipes can easily and safely be converted.

For whats it's worth
 

9.875oz=276gm per 25 pounds or 11gm per pound

I use 8.5 per pound  for my favorite bacon.

 

post #38 of 74

Ok, TQ is Lighter than salt, I will own up to that mistake, I will also give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have the proprietary blend of ingredients in TQ and know how much salt they use...I can't find it and this discussion has come up many times before and no one has ever had this info...But...Regardless recipes are DESIGNED and WRITTEN to use specific amount of ingredients...Making a general statement like, just substitute TQ and leave out the Salt, does not only change the recipe but can be down right Dangerous! Check the Recipe example I use...

The recipe I posted as example uses 10oz of Salt and 2oz Cure #1= 340g for 25 lb Bacon

 

According to charts 1T of Cure #1 = .6 oz = 17g same as 1T table salt. http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?736-Curing-Salts

 

For sake of argument I will convert to Tablespoons because TQ recommendations are 1T per Lb of Belly.

 

To maintain the amount of salinity intended in the recipe 340/17g= 20T Salt

 

If you skipped the salt and cure and added TQ, you would need 25T of TQ...for 25lb Belly.

 

Since 1T of TQ is lighter than Table Salt and contains Sugar (thanks for bringing this to my attention), 12.6g vs 17g...There would not be enough Salt in the recipe...So not only would a simple substitution change the Flavor...

 

The author specifically states and went to the trouble of Capitalizing for emphasis..." DO NOT SOAK "...Anyone reading this can see he finds it imperitve that a Specific amount of Salt and Cure be there for a reason! I would venture a guess RYTEK knows what he is taking about, it is his recipe... The whole point of Recipes is to produce Consistent and Repeatable product, if you wish to deviate that is your business...But you should not get offended when the people responsible for the safety of 30,000 members tells you, What you are recommending may not be safe!...You would have to assume everyone reading your statements knows what you mean when you say, "  if you follow the proper directions and rules, many recipes can easily and safely be converted. ", but you don't post those instructions and a random statement like just use TQ and leave out the salt don't cover it...JJ



 


Edited by Chef JimmyJ - 2/12/12 at 6:07pm
post #39 of 74

If nothing else I hope this banter might enlighten someone, and if so, that's a good thing.

No better way to learn then to exchange thoughts and ideas.

post #40 of 74
Chef JimmyJ wrote.....

"Making a general statement like, just substitute TQ and leave
out the Salt, does not only change the recipe but can be down right
Dangerous!"



Who is saying this? It certainly wasn't me. Quite the opposite.

SausageBoy wrote....
"There's no risk as long as you follow the rules. Recipes
are converted all the time."


SausageBoy wrote....
As I said above, there's nothing wrong with adapting a recipe
either way as long as the rules are followed.


SausageBoy quoted....
"They can be used in recipes that call for cure #1, but because
they are measured differently and the salt they contain, they are not
directly interchangeable with cure #1, or cure #2, saltpeter or Morton
Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure."

and
"If replacing Morton Tender Quick for cure #1 in a recipe, do
not add the salt that the recipe calls for."


SausageBoy wrote....
"...there is no conundrum if you follow the rules."

SausageBoy wrote....
"Again, if you follow the proper directions and rules,
many recipes can easily and safely be converted."


SausageBoy wrote.....
....done safely when directions, rules and reasonable safety precautions are followed.


Chef JimmyJ wrote......

"Anyone reading this can see he finds it imperitve that a
Specific amount of Salt and Cure be there for a reason!"


Specific amount?

Sorry, but I can't agree!

Anyone reading the recipe can see that he also says, and I'll
paraphrase, "If the bellies are not covered in their own natural
brine, make a pickle brine with 1-1/4 lbs. of the above formula to one
gallon of water."

So, obviously, the amount of salt and cure is NOT specific If more may be required.

Chef JimmyJ wrote......
"I would venture a guess RYTEK knows what he is taking about, it is his recipe..."

If you're not comfortable converting recipes, BY ALL MEANS, do not do it!

But, please, don't say that it can't be done safely when
directions, rules and reasonable safety precautions are followed.
A little common sense helps too!
Edited by SausageBoy - 2/12/12 at 6:30pm
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