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4 hour 140* - Page 3

post #41 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekegill View Post

I think that you guys got the whole 40-140 wrong. What it sounds like, is you think that you temp has to be out of the danger zone while cooking, that is not true. If your food gets above 140 it is fine to eat aslong as it has not been between 40-140 for 4 hours right before you eat it.  for example if you leave a chicken out all day at 50 but then you cook it over 169 it still would be safe to eat. 

It is information like this that will get people very sick. Just because you cook it above 140 doesn't mean its safe if its been out @50 degrees all day(several hours). Bacteria creates toxins that cannot be killed by heat. Please do not come on this forum and say stuff like that because someone who doesn't know better may follow it and you will be responsible for getting them sick because of your misinformation.

Im sorry to sound blunt but safety is very important around here.
post #42 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekegill View Post

I think that you guys got the whole 40-140 wrong. What it sounds like, is you think that you temp has to be out of the danger zone while cooking, that is not true. If your food gets above 140 it is fine to eat aslong as it has not been between 40-140 for 4 hours right before you eat it.  for example if you leave a chicken out all day at 50 but then you cook it over 169 it still would be safe to eat. 



ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!...If this was true there would be no need to refrigerate anything, no need to add Cure to any sausage, no need to wash your hands or wear gloves, no need for us Chef's to spent any time gettig a  Sanitation and Safety Certification and the Federal Government can balance the budget by shutting down the USDA and the FDA...Just cook it and you'll be fine!?!...You are getting some Very BAD Information!!!...JJ

 

post #43 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmudd14474 View Post


It is information like this that will get people very sick. Just because you cook it above 140 doesn't mean its safe if its been out @50 degrees all day(several hours). Bacteria creates toxins that cannot be killed by heat. Please do not come on this forum and say stuff like that because someone who doesn't know better may follow it and you will be responsible for getting them sick because of your misinformation.
Im sorry to sound blunt but safety is very important around here.



I agree with you, and I used a bad example.  All I am trying to say is  have been reading here and have seen people concerned about haveing an IT get above 140 in 4 hours while smoking because it is in the "danger zone" and that is not what it is for.  The big concern in food is salmonella, ecoli, listeria and all these are killed with heat.

 

post #44 of 54

Don't forget botulism that thrives in the low oxygen environment of a smoker and the toxin is not destroyed by heat. 

 

Dekegill,  you need to take this discussion to a private message with Chef Jimmy or someone else on the forum that can work out what you are trying to say.  Nothing good is going to come from this line of reasoning in a public place

post #45 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by alblancher View Post

Don't forget botulism that thrives in the low oxygen environment of a smoker and the toxin is not destroyed by heat. 

 

Dekegill,  you need to take this discussion to a private message with Chef Jimmy or someone else on the forum that can work out what you are trying to say.  Nothing good is going to come from this line of reasoning in a public place

 

While the botulinum spores can survive in boiling water, the botulinum toxin is heat-labile. Heating food to a typical cooking temperature of 80°C (176°F) for 10 minutes before consumption can greatly reduce the risk of illness.

 

Dekegill, I had to edit this post because the statement about honey was causing a problem with our Spam Filter...JJ

 

post #46 of 54

This post is very interesting to me.  I have never considered surface vs internal temp. Bottom line: I don't want anyone to get sick eating my food. In fact, I want them to enjoy it and ask for more so I can continue the hobby. If I get people sick they won't come back.

 

I have always pulled the meat out of the fridge and let rest for ~ 30 min to bring to room temp while bringing the smoker to temp, placing it on the smoker and inserting the probe immediately when I start the cook.  I watch and log the temp rise over time every 30 minutes (or so).  This is an attempt to learn from mistakes and successes.

 

I went over some of the smoke logs I keep: I have examples of a butt reaching 140* @ 2.5 hrs internal on its way to finish temp, a prime rib roast reaching 140* @ 3.5 hours internal when I removed it (it was a bit more med-well than I was looking for), and a 22 lb turkey reaching 140* @ 5 hours internal on its way to finish temp. 

 

Of course, I never measured the surface temp so I may have exceeded 140* on the surface after an hour or so. ...but I have no idea and will consider my past technique dumb luck. What makes everyone think 1 hour is enough time?  I'd need one of those laser pointer temp probe devices to test surface temps.

 

 

post #47 of 54

You would think that putting a piece of meat in a 250 degree smoker would give you a surface temp of 250 immediately wouldn't you.  I always start my smoker at 300 and let it settle to the 250 - 225 smoking temp.    Never considered purchasing one of those Star Wars temp things that shoot a beam at the surface of the meat.  Maybe if you had one of those you could insert your thermo in 1/2 hour or less.  I guess I just never considered the one hour without a thermo very important.

 

Interesting question,  there is a possibility that if you put a load of meat in a 225 electric and the temp drops way down with the smoker not able to recover then you would need more then a hour before inserting the thermometer

post #48 of 54

Maverick makes one: $48.41 on Amazon

 

surface thermometer.jpg

post #49 of 54

Every few months someone will come on the site and Challenge the concept of 40*-140*F in 4 hours...Here is our reasoning for it's use... This is a Safety Guideline...It takes into consideration that there may very well be Bacteria On your meat or In your sausage that although THEY are killed at 135*F, have the capability of producing TOXINS that can cause Illness, Paralysis or Death...E-Coli 0157 and Clostridium Botulinum are two examples...These toxins CAN NOT be rendered safe no matter how much Heat or Cooking time is applied...Are these and other Bacteria like Salmonella and Listeria always present?...NO...If we Inject, Probe or Punch Cloves of Garlic into our meat are we always going to Infect the Interior of the meat with Bacteria?...NO...Is every Sausage we make or Turkey we smoke loaded with Bacteria?...Well here the answer is probably YES!biggrin.gif...Can I inject my Butt or Brisket and Smoke it at 200*F for Twenty hours with out causing a problem?...Probably....Can I Defrost my Meat on the Counter all day and Safely cook it?...Maybe....Is it ok to get Totally Hammered, then light my Charcoal with Gasoline?...I'm not going there!...The point being is...Our families are the ones we feed! It is your obligation to learn, understand and practice Food Safety...There is a lot of dumb stuff we do and get away with it...But when it comes to those we love we need to be careful... We come to a forum and seek knowledge from others that have prepared Foods Safely, took the time and expense to educate themselves and are willing to share their knowledge...We should use this knowledge to the best of our ability....Keep raw Meat cold...Cook Meat to a safe temperature ASAP...The Higher the Risk that Bacteria has been introduced the more critical it is that we cook it as quickly as we can...All this has to be undertaken while we use a variety of cooking techniques...Low and Slow Smoking...Cold Smoking...Even Curing and Drying...to get the product we desire...It has been established that

A Guideline like 40-140 in 4...aka the Rule (less letters than Guideline) is, Easy to remember, Provides a margin of Error, Has been gleaned from information provided by Multiple sources, including but not limited to, Professional Food service organizations, The American Culinary Federation, The ServSafe program, the USDA and Food Service Professionals with Years of Experience... Is, " 40 to 140*F in 4 " written down in any Government Food Service Law Manual, or Word for Word on any fore mentioned Website or Charter?...NO...But it Has been adopted by This Site and others to protect it's members!...

Trust in the fact that Members of SMF have your best interest at heart and watch each others back...If they have a Moderators Badge or OTBS Badge, they have spent time learning and practicing our art and are here to pass it on...Ask all the questions you like and try not to be offended when you are challenged for making broad statements that contradict that which years of experience has taught us to be true or at least resonable...JJ

post #50 of 54

Infrared Thermometers

 

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4452695 $44.99

 

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4447708&clickid=prod_cs  $39.99

 

 

Two similar products from RadioShack, the difference is the less expensive one has a +/- of 2.5° through the entire temp range, whereas the $44.99 has a +/- of 1% from 20° through 100°, and 2.5% +/- 100° - 428°. Bullet shaped keychain style, runs on 2 LR44 button-cell batteries (put extra batteries on your RadioShack card and get 15% off); LR44's are equiv. to 357 or 76 button cell batteries.

 

Both look like this:

 

ThermoHAWK™ Q3I-TH220 Infrared Non-Contact Thermometer

post #51 of 54

You know those gadgets you buy and never use?  My IR Thermometer is not one of them...I use it way more than I thought I would...great investment!!

post #52 of 54

I bet the're great for just about everything.   Hot pots on the stove, skillets,  that car seat in the middle of summer before you sit on it with short pants!

post #53 of 54

Well said, JJ!

 

post #54 of 54

Ok guy's after a long talk with Dekegill...He was in fact was able to supply proof that Botulinum Toxin is destroyed or at least rendered less harmful by heating to 176*F for 10 Minutes...Just shows there is always more to learn, Kudos Sir!...However I did further research and found that Bacteria like E-Coli0157 and Shigella also produce Toxins that are Heat Stable and cannot be destroyed by heat...Further more, while Botulism is rare in this country because of Milk Pasteurization and safe food handling practices...E-Coli and Shigella can be extremely common in Meat and Vegetables because both bacteria thrive in the Intestinal Tract of animals and in Soil so contamination from Feces and cross-contamination from Vegetables and Fresh Herbs to Meat frequently occurs...

 

Our best defense has been and continues to be...Follow Safe handling practices, like keeping things Cold, Defrosting in the refer, Washing Meat and Vegetables, get Ground, Probed or Injected Meat out of the Danger Zone (40-140*F) in 4 hours or less and if you choose to Cold or Cool Smoke Sausage or Meats ALWAYS apply the proper amount of Nitrite Cure #1...JJ

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