My smoker stayed at 175 all night with a boston butt in it...safe to continue ?

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First, in the future when you have an oven temperature failure (or smoker or whatever the heck you choose as the thing to make the heat) always always check the temp when it came out.  This allows you to figure the pasteurization process and whether it could apply.

That said, pork and beef can be treated the same under whole intact muscle.  This says to me that the meat is being treated as a standing rib roast or steamship round.

I just want everyone to know why...... I analyze the hazards that could apply... since the cooker temp was above the 140 F level the real concern for this meat becomes C. Botulism.  So we are dealing with a problem that needs high humidity, and lack of oxygen.  This is your main concern.   Two things can be looked at to assess the chances... mechnical puncturing of the muscle group, and where did this meat come from and when did it first get exposed to outside contaminates?

Since lots of people use garlic with pork... that becomes the main vehicle for adding botulism to the formula.

If it was injected I would probably toss... if it was injected with garlic in the mix I would definately toss.

However, I would serve this with no problem with a few conditions:

It was not injected or mechanically tenderized.

It was taken to a final temperature exceeding 162 F for 15 seconds.  (because it is pork I like a more safety oriented temp finish... on beef I would do a different temp, that would be way lower then 140 F  more like 132 F or so)

The pork in question was taken by you, or in front of you, out of the vacuum packaging so you know you were the first to expose it to outside contaminates.

That is my 2 cents on the deal.... I know many called for it to be tossed... they are not wrong... but with the amount of experience I and others have in cooking large intact muscle groups at low temps I would go with it because of your final finish temperture and a lack of mechanical puncturing.  The length of time and final temp will take care of the poison if somehow it got E-coli or another nasty surface problem... the big concern really is Botulism...... hence my insistance that is not have been injected. 

If you don't feel you know the meat and how it was handled, toss it,..... if you have a great idea of the meat was right out of the cyro I would use it.
Thanks Bob,

This is what I was referring to & trying to explain in my two posts above, but since I only know about 5% of what you know about that, I couldn't explain it like you just did.

The thing that made me think it might not have to be thrown away was, as I mentioned a few times above, it was not probed or injected.

At least now others might know I wasn't just babbling.

Thanks Again,

Bear

BTW: This is why I NEVER insert a temperature probe in a non-cured meat until, 2, 3, or even sometimes 4 hours into the smoke.

I used to, but not since I learned this thing from Bob.

If you insert a probe at the beginning, you are stuck with that 40˚ to 140˚ in 4 hours rule!

I never did like sweating those 4 hours out!
 
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I thought the Intact Muscle Rule would apply and that the outer .5 inches would have to get to 140 in under 4 hours. Would this happen at a smoker temp of 175 in past threads I have seen Bob post this is easily done at smoker temps of 200 degrees or more.
 
I thought the Intact Muscle Rule would apply and that the outer .5 inches would have to get to 140 in under 4 hours. Would this happen at a smoker temp of 175 in past threads I have seen Bob post this is easily done at smoker temps of 200 degrees or more.


That was my earlier question too. I guess we could take a cheap piece of meat---hold 175˚ for 4 hours, then use a "quick" probe to check the outer 1/2" all around. I don't know any other way to find out. 

Or we could just not probe for the first couple hours at 225˚ or better, like I have been doing, and never find out if 175˚ is high enough.

Bear
 
When I read a post lacking information I  "fill in the blanks" assuming the OP practiced normal sanitary handling procedures. 

In this post when no chamber temp (other then the 175) was provided, no internal temp was provided, no length of time in the chamber before leaving unattended was provided I jumped to the conclusion that the entire procedure was compromised and based my recommendations on that.   I see no reason to change my belief that the product is dangerous.

BBALLY, I am going to save your reply on my hard drive,  you may see it cited again sometime in the future.  Thanks for the information and the lesson.

Al
 
When I read a post lacking information I  "fill in the blanks" assuming the OP practiced normal sanitary handling procedures. 

In this post when no chamber temp (other then the 175) was provided, no internal temp was provided, no length of time in the chamber before leaving unattended was provided I jumped to the conclusion that the entire procedure was compromised and based my recommendations on that.   I see no reason to change my belief that the product is dangerous.

BBALLY, I am going to save your reply on my hard drive,  you may see it cited again sometime in the future.  Thanks for the information and the lesson.

Al
No argument here. Those were my first thoughts too, until I noticed he didn't probe or inject. If he would have injected or probed, the whole ballgame would be thrown out & default to that 40˚ to 140˚ in 4 hours rule.

I tried to explain the Intact Muscle Rule, that Jerry pointed me to bbally a long time ago about, but everybody seemed to ignore what I was saying.

I figured it was just that I wasn't explaining it very well, so I called in the master. It's so much easier to understand when he explains it.

Bear
 
So Bear,

Do you think the meat is safe if he marinated with fresh garlic and turned the meat with a fork or knife tip?  How many fork stabs are safe?  I hate to ask if he did because this is an exercise for the rest of us not necessarily a reply to his question.  No indication of how long in the marinade, no idea of temp of the marinade or ingredients.  I've seen Jerry get nervous because he didn't have any alcohol to rub the thermos when he was prepping meat for the N Florida Gathering. 

I am glad we revisited the whole muscle discussion, it was very informative. 

Al
 
So Bear,

Do you think the meat is safe if he marinated with fresh garlic and turned the meat with a fork or knife tip?  How many fork stabs are safe?  I hate to ask if he did because this is an exercise for the rest of us not necessarily a reply to his question.  No indication of how long in the marinade, no idea of temp of the marinade or ingredients.  I've seen Jerry get nervous because he didn't have any alcohol to rub the thermos when he was prepping meat for the N Florida Gathering. 

I am glad we revisited the whole muscle discussion, it was very informative. 

Al
Marinating with garlic doesn't hurt.

I wouldn't turn it or stab it with a fork, or anything else.

He didn't say he stabbed it.

How many posts leave how long they marinate out, but as long as it's not for days, I don't worry about it.

I would hope it was marinated in cold water like any other time.

Bear
 
It sure seems that the Food Safety standards have so many if this and if that that the whole thing is confusing and pretty useless if you don't have an expert there to decipher it for you
 
Thanks Bob

I think we all agree that knowing the exact status of the meat from opening to final pull and temp would have given us a better sense of what options we could have offered up. That said, not having your experience and not knowing the all the details the only safe call fou us, as you pointed out, was to toss.

Thanks for taking the time to go thru the entire explanation process. I learn so much from you all the time
 
When I read a post lacking information I  "fill in the blanks" assuming the OP practiced normal sanitary handling procedures. 

In this post when no chamber temp (other then the 175) was provided, no internal temp was provided, no length of time in the chamber before leaving unattended was provided I jumped to the conclusion that the entire procedure was compromised and based my recommendations on that.   I see no reason to change my belief that the product is dangerous.

BBALLY, I am going to save your reply on my hard drive,  you may see it cited again sometime in the future.  Thanks for the information and the lesson.

Al
As I said in my post, those that called for tossing it out were NOT wrong. In a situation where a person finds themselves without the information, or the experience, or the knowledge to make an informed decision I would totally agree with tossing it in the can.  In this situation if it got tossed I would not argue with that decision.

I posted what I posted so some of you that have been doing this for a long time (you included) can have more advanced understanding that the foodcode is a set of guidelines intended to help you evaluate a situation.

175 F will bring intact muscle on the outer 0.5 inches to the proper temp in plenty of time.   How do I know?  I cook prime rib many times in the AltoSham... generally set to the 175 F to 185 F holding temperature.  This is a common practice in convention centers across the country.
 
So Bear,

Do you think the meat is safe if he marinated with fresh garlic and turned the meat with a fork or knife tip?  How many fork stabs are safe?  I hate to ask if he did because this is an exercise for the rest of us not necessarily a reply to his question.  No indication of how long in the marinade, no idea of temp of the marinade or ingredients.  I've seen Jerry get nervous because he didn't have any alcohol to rub the thermos when he was prepping meat for the N Florida Gathering. 

I am glad we revisited the whole muscle discussion, it was very informative. 

Al
Fork stabs or Knife stabs would change the reply.  That is why I qualified it with the intact muscle rule.  If that was violated the response would not apply.
 
 
It sure seems that the Food Safety standards have so many if this and if that that the whole thing is confusing and pretty useless if you don't have an expert there to decipher it for you


Realize the food safety standards are guidelines that allow a person to set up a safe way to do what they are trying to do......  Experience helps, and having to put up with a health inspector once per week helps also... many times they are wrong and I have to show them... of course I am also wrong sometimes and they have to show me why in the guidelines.  Food safety is something that has to be practiced to the best methods being used now... and realize that there is no rule that cannot be tested and changed if data show a method that is not performing to keep people safe.
 
Marinating with garlic doesn't hurt.

I wouldn't turn it or stab it with a fork, or anything else.

He didn't say he stabbed it.

How many posts leave how long they marinate out, but as long as it's not for days, I don't worry about it.

I would hope it was marinated in cold water like any other time.

Bear


While basically correct, realize that marinating in Garlic under "oil only" can be a problem.  If there is water or vinegar not really a problem, but if someone is marinating in garlic and oil, and the garlic could be under the oil with no water or vinegar contact that could lead to a C. Botulism incubator.
 
Here again I learned something,

When food safety guys say surface temp they mean the first 1/2 inch.  Makes sense to me.  I believe I read surface temp of 145 with noticeable color change was required

I know that I have started using tongs to handle meat during prep and on the grill instead of a fork for that very reason.  I also no longer use oil based marinades.  I will brush with butter or olive oil during cooking to help crisp the surface and develop a nice charred appearance 

Thanks everyone for a great discussion.

Al
 
I agree...very interesting and informative..

  Craig
 
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If a person can't learn something reading this great thread there is something wrong with them...Thank you for a thread that should be a sticky...some great knowledge on this board...
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......  Experience helps, and having to put up with a health inspector once per week helps also... many times they are wrong and I have to show them... of course I am also wrong sometimes and they have to show me why in the guidelines.  Food safety is something that has to be practiced to the best methods being used now... and realize that there is no rule that cannot be tested and changed if data show a method that is not performing to keep people safe.
this is so true, during an inspection i have actually had to go to the health department's website and print off a food code to prove that a young inspector was incorect and i had him fix my inspection report.
Originally Posted by bbally    

175 F will bring intact muscle on the outer 0.5 inches to the proper temp in plenty of time.   How do I know?  I cook prime rib many times in the AltoSham... generally set to the 175 F to 185 F holding temperature.   This is a common practice in convention centers across the country.  
and this is where i based my comment from. i have for years cooked certain roasts @ or below 200 deg for really long periods of time and like bob said this is very common in the industry. however i have never done a pork roast @175 but my thinking was it was still an unpunctured intact muscle and the same rules would apply. also to bring the first quote round circle i once had a conversation with an inspector about extremely long low heat cooks and he said i don't care how long it takes as long as the muscle is not comprimized and you eventually get to the correct temp, he was gong to be o.k. with it.
 
I know that I have started using tongs to handle meat during prep and on the grill instead of a fork for that very reason.
i have never understood why so many use forks, turners, and pokers.............tongs are like a natural extention of my hands for me.
 
I had seen where Bob had in the past posted that the outer .5" would get to the 140 degree mark easily at 200 or above but had never seen him say that it would pass it at the 175 smoker temps so I guess I too learned something new
 
While basically correct, realize that marinating in Garlic under "oil only" can be a problem.  If there is water or vinegar not really a problem, but if someone is marinating in garlic and oil, and the garlic could be under the oil with no water or vinegar contact that could lead to a C. Botulism incubator.
Thanks Bob,

That's good to know for others more than for me.

I can only handle a very small amount of garlic flavor.

If I marinated anything in a lot of garlic & oil, I would have to toss it because of it's strong smell, before I puke!

I add garlic powder to most of my smokes, but not much.

The poster didn't say what he marinated it in anyway.

And thanks for explaining the 175˚ thing above too!

Bear
 
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