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40 to 140 in under 4 ?? - Page 2

post #21 of 30

for me and my customers a "145" mid rare doesn't fly.............i'd get send backs all night long. while i'm not i big fan of tare tare, i do like a good carpaccio.

post #22 of 30
Originally Posted by chefrob View Post

for me and my customers a "145" mid rare doesn't fly.............i'd get send backs all night long. while i'm not i big fan of tare tare, i do like a good carpaccio.

LOL----Many moons ago, when I was in my 20s, I ordered a steak Med/Rare at one of those cheap steak joints (The Rustler).

Everybody else's steak was brought to the table before mine was----I couldn't figure out why that could be.

Then I saw why---They brought me a well done piece of crap. I made my usual little cut in it to be sure.

I called the waiter over and told him I had ordered it Med/Rare. He agreed, and took it back to the grills.

I little while later they brought me a steak---It looked well done too!!

I flipped it over, and sure enough, there was the cut I had made in it the first time they brought it to me (The same steak!).

I picked it up, took it to the door that said "Manager" on it, and I knocked.

I asked the guy who came to the door if he was the Manager. He said he was.

I told him what had happened, and asked him if he knew any way that you could turn a well done steak into a Med/Rare steak.

He asked the guy why he sent the same one back to me. He said he didn't. But the little cut I had made???

He said he made that cut, and he had thrown the one I sent back away.

The Manager asked him which trash can he threw it in. He said, "None of these---I took it out to the dumpster".

So we are to believe he personally carried one steak out across the parking lot to the dumpster, with my cut in it.


The Manager made me one exactly the way I wanted it.

Everybody else at our table had to watch me eat, because they were all finished eating by the time I got my final steak.




post #23 of 30

Where does the USDA list in writing, anything about 4 hours or less to reach 140° internal meat temp or the outside 1/2 inch of meat?

post #24 of 30
Originally Posted by DeanNC View Post

Where does the USDA list in writing, anything about 4 hours or less to reach 140° internal meat temp or the outside 1/2 inch of meat?

Starting this year you won't find 140 F in the guidelines. You will see the Danger Zone defined as 41 F to 135 F as that is the new standard.

No where would it mention the outside half inch of meat reaching 140 F as the food code is designed to be  information on how to properly prepare food with successful results.  However when you use the Whole Intact Muscle rule, you don't want the probe to violate the muscle group lest you have to treat is as a violated meat.


So by delaying the probe insertion until the outside of the meat has been sterilized you can safely under cook the rest of the muscle group and show compliance.


The Danger zone rule is 4 hours maximum time/temperature abuse.  Including prep and cooking.  You can also monitor times through the temperature danger zone for multiple step prep work.  This is how we ensure public safety using the 4 hour rule.


The 4 hour rule is in the 2009 food code:


(B) If time temperature control is used as the public health control

up to a maximum of 4 hours:


Again this is to say the no food shall have a cumulitive temperature abuse of more that 4 hours.  It is also qualified with potentially hazardous foods.  Raw meat being potentially hazardous.  Cold ready to eat food has exceptions that will allow up to 6 hours.




The site is, of course, treating the smoker hobbyist as a professional chef using the pro guidelines to establish what would happen in a commercial kitchen.


We do this assuming the smoker hobbyist is striving for the pro level results and thus needs released from the shackles of the home cook rules.  This is the reason we use the Food Code for the smoker hobbyist on the site.  Their (Serious hobbyist smoker) level of knowledge and skill is well above the "home cook, or consumer cook" and as such they need information on how to properly interpret those guidelines so they can push their skills into the pro arena.  There is a whole body of work that is also suppose to be used in conjunction with the Food Code, HACCP, Whole Intact Muscle, High Humidity cooking minimum temperature exceptions,  Smoking Curing inspectors handbook,  etc etc and numerous reesearch papers and FSIS position clarifications that come out.  Several qualified food safety professionals are on this site to share their information on how the commercial kitchen does the advanced techniques safely.  This helps the smoker hobbyist continue to push the envelope safely and give guidance on how do what the pros do.  The foodcode is opened up to the pro chef because FSIS USDA knows they have the knowledge to understand the consequences of handling food incorrectly.


If people are not in this category of skill level or mind set it would be best to use the consumer/home cook rules.  These rules are much more restrictive to keep the ignorant (as in food safety uneducated not any individual) from killing their family and/or friends.  These rules limit people to two hours maximum and one hour when the temperature is above 90 F. The also limit the lowest cooking temperatures.  That book can be downloaded at the link below.   Realize most people on the site are really pushing into the commercial realm and need the information offered from the commercial world, much of which won't be black and white or a written yes or no, it is left that way on purpose so we can do what we do safely.  For the "show it to me in black and white" crowd the companion below was developed to keep people safe.


Dean... rub this publication in their face as you wanted something in print.  Tell them by their questions to you, they have no business even thinking about using pro guidelines; as black and white is for consumers and listed below; advanced techiniques are for those interested in producing pro results but requires a "do it safely" mind set... not a prove I cannot do this mind set.


 Consumer Kitchen Companion


Hope this helps.

Edited by bbally - 1/1/11 at 8:53am
post #25 of 30
Originally Posted by SmokinAl View Post

OK, from reading all your posts, I'm assuming that it's safe to eat Prime rib at 125 degrees internal if it's smoked at at least 225 degrees and the external 1/2 " of the meat is at least 140 degrees. Correct?

The correct answer is:


There are risks associated with eating under cooked beef.  But using Intact muscle rules you can reduce those risks significantly;


You cannot feed beef in this temperature range to any at risk population.  Including those with compromised immun systems, hospital patients, the frale ederly, those with diabetic conditions.


I could not feed it in catering cause it would still be bloody.  We like to see juice run clear.  That is 132 F.  So we pull at 128 to 130 F and cambro.  Buy the time we get onsite it is a perfect 138 F in the middle and 145 F on the ends allowing a pretty wide variety of cuts to be sliced for peoples preference.  That said always one egotistical maniac in the crowd that insists it is not rare enough.  To which I reply, go to a restaurant they cook to order and I serve their slice to the person in line behing them.  Then I explain I cook for the majority of everyone here, would you like one or not, you are holding up my line?  At which time they blink their eyes confused that someone would basically tell the to shut up and take it or leave it.

post #26 of 30

Bob (bbally),

Thanks for the very informative posts---as usual.




post #27 of 30
Thread Starter 


Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius.gif      Thanks to all for the input and your time   


I believe we have finally agreed to disagree.  th_dunno-1[1].gif


post #28 of 30


Originally Posted by Arnie View Post


Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius.gif      Thanks to all for the input and your time   


I believe we have finally agreed to disagree.  th_dunno-1[1].gif


I love the dead horse Emoticon!!!!!


Agree to disagree is important in many instances..... This is complicated if it was easy the CDC would not release these kind of statistics:


 To better quantify the impact of foodborne diseases on health in the United States, we compiled and analyzed information from multiple surveillance systems and other sources. We estimate that foodborne diseases cause approximately 76 million illnesses, 325,000 hospitalizations, and 5,000 deaths in the United States each year. Known pathogens account for an estimated 14 million illnesses, 60,000 hospitalizations, and 1,800 deaths. Three pathogens, Salmonella, Listeria, and Toxoplasma, are responsible for 1,500 deaths each year, more than 75% of those caused by known pathogens, while unknown agents account for the remaining 62 million illnesses, 265,000 hospitalizations, and 3,200 deaths. Overall, foodborne diseases appear to cause more illnesses but fewer deaths than previously estimated.


The only thing you can do it commit to learning to do it safer as the information is added to the body of work.

To make a cut and dry rule, you end up with the kitchen guideline, way to restrictive for what some people are trying to accomplish.... give a food code for reference you end up with endless discussion on how and why.... the subject is complex!


But, make it idiot proof and the world will design a better idiot icon_mrgreen.gif to prove it wrong!

post #29 of 30

Thanks for your input Bob, and them CDC stats are sobering to say the least.


post #30 of 30

Bob, thanks for your thorough and informative posts!!!  The link is excellent as well and helps me greatly! Again, thank you and Happy New Year!

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