Finally... for some time I have espoused not using cola in a curing brine... FACTS follow...

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How come adding ascorbic acid to bacon cures is not a concern then?
Ascorbic Acid is another name for a synthetic Vitamin C I believe...  Evidently the food industry has done some testing and found it safe.... maybe....  krap, who knows...

Ascorbic acid is a naturally occurring organic compound with antioxidant properties. It is a white solid, but impure samples can appear yellowish. It dissolves well in water to give mildly acidic solutions. Ascorbic acid is one form ("vitamer") of vitamin C. It was originally called L-hexuronic acid, but, when it was found to have vitamin C activity in animals ("vitamin C" being defined as a vitamin activity, not then a specific substance), the suggestion was made to rename it. The new name, ascorbic acid, is derived from a- (meaning "no") and scorbutus (scurvy), the disease caused by a deficiency of vitamin C. Because it is derived from glucose, many non-human animals are able to produce it, but humans require it as part of their nutrition. Other vertebrates which lack the ability to produce ascorbic acid include some primates, guinea pigs, teleost fishes, bats, and some birds, all of which require it as a dietary micronutrient (that is, in vitamin form).[sup][2][/sup]
 
 
Another day and the sun is shining

For those of you whom feel the need to pick the poor thing to death and find fault with my intentions,  ....................................
Hi Dave, yes your intentions were certainly good and anything that reduces the expected amount of Nitrite in a brine is not good. The emphasis in your post though on the toxicity hazards of Nitric oxide I think may have been a little misguided when referring to brine concentrations of Nitrite. When/if it is released some of the Nitric Oxide will remain in solution and as it is quite reactive with Oxygen and is readily mopped up by reacting with metallic ions and proteins that are released by the cut meat, it will have a very short half life. Unfortunately without knowing at what rate the NO will be produced as pH varies then it is currently guesswork as to whether toxicity levels are anywhere near being approached. It seems highly unlikely that they would be though.

You mentioned that Guy had found two valid points as to why cola should not be added to curing brines. Have you shared these or were they general comments to do with the breakdown of Nitrite in acidic conditions. Were these cola specific or do they equally apply to other acidic solutions too?

You mentioned a specific pH of 4.8 above witch it seems the brine needs to be kept. Where is this from? What I will try to do over the next few days is get a pH meter from work and see just how dilute things like Coke or vinegar need to be in order for the pH to move above 4.8. I have no idea at the moment so it will be an interesting experiment. It may help to  identify the scale of any issue with adding these types of ingredients to a brine.

Wade
Wade, if you would have read my post #1, you would have seen it in the first article......

Please avoid adding acidic ingredients to your curing brine...

Acidic curing brines..

Never add acidic ingredients to a curing brine.... I was discussing this with N4YNU, a member here, relating how I couldn't find evidence to verify that statement... Well, younger eyes were able to provide certified reason for that statement.. Thanks much Guy.... Dave

safety

When adding curing salts to brine, it's important that the brine not be too acidic. A highly acidic solution will cause the curing salts to very rapidly decompose into nitric oxide, which is dangerous as a concentrated gas. So don't add vinegar to the brine, and never mix liquid smoke (which is acidic) directly with curing salts.

 

You'll need to make sure the pH is 4.8 or above. If the Coca Cola is the only thing in the brine, it will be too acidic.

https://www.chefsteps.com/ingredients/prague-powder-no-1
 
 
Wade, if you would have read my post #1, you would have seen it in the first article......

Please avoid adding acidic ingredients to your curing brine...

Acidic curing brines..

Never add acidic ingredients to a curing brine.... I was discussing this with N4YNU, a member here, relating how I couldn't find evidence to verify that statement... Well, younger eyes were able to provide certified reason for that statement.. Thanks much Guy.... Dave

safety

When adding curing salts to brine, it's important that the brine not be too acidic. A highly acidic solution will cause the curing salts to very rapidly decompose into nitric oxide, which is dangerous as a concentrated gas. So don't add vinegar to the brine, and never mix liquid smoke (which is acidic) directly with curing salts.

 

You'll need to make sure the pH is 4.8 or above. If the Coca Cola is the only thing in the brine, it will be too acidic.

https://www.chefsteps.com/ingredients/prague-powder-no-1
OK Dave. I did read it but knowing you, I thought that you were basing your warning statement on more than just a comment found in another community discussion post. The person posting offers no explanation as to how the pH 4.8 figure is derived - they just quote it as a fact. They are also getting Nitrate and Nitrite confused in their post so I am not sure how much credence we should place in it - though maybe it was just a typo that went unnoticed...
 
Ellen ngIf: comment.data.author.employee Works at ChefSteps end ngIf: comment.data.author.employee ngIf: comment.data.author.jouleAmbassador ngIf: comment.data.parentCommentId && comment.data.parentCommentAuthor 9 mo ago

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Hi Pablo, thank you for your question. Yes, it is possible that if the brine is too acidic when nitrate is being added, you run the risk of producing a gas that is dangerous to inhale. You'll need to make sure the pH is 4.8 or above. If the Coca Cola is the only thing in the brine, it will be too acidic.

Are you suggesting Ellen just picked a number out of the air with the distinct possibility of ruining her reputation ???   You'll have to write to Ellen and request her source of the information....   

For press inquiries: [email protected]
For general inquiries: [email protected]
For customer service: [email protected]
 
[h2]What is ChefSteps?[/h2]
ChefSteps believes cooking makes us better people—seriously. Founded in 2012, we’re a Seattle-based food and technology company on a mission to help people cook smarter. Chefsteps.com and its companion app are designed to inspire creativity and encourage experimentation through high-quality interactive content, techniques, tools, and resources.

The ChefSteps team is made up of 50+ voices—chefs, scientists, photographers, writers, and engineers—and we all come to work each day with one thing in mind: helping you cook confidently. (We call this “cooking smarter.”) Why? Because the more you know about cooking, the better you get at it. And the better you get at it, the more fun it is. We think cooking and eating together makes us better humans, and we want to share that belief with the world.
 
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What a very informational post. I read all of this and all of the other posts in response as well.

I think I would have to agree on no acidic in the brine. Who was it here that said why add all those perfumes and let the meat speak for itself.??

The only thing I know about nitric or should I say nitrous oxide is that we used to use it as an accelerant in our race car for bursts of speed. I will go back and re read all of the post again too.

I also checked out that ChefSteps site and really enjoyed reading the Sous Vide info., I have way to much information to process now. Thanks again folks.

HT
 
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" Acid is another name for a synthetic Vitamin C I believe... Evidently the food industry has done some testing and found it safe.... maybe.... krap, who knows..."
----
Vitamin C or not is an acid (weak) and it would lower the pH when added to water solution. I calculated 462ppm (max level ascorbic acid in US) would give a pH of 3.34.
 
 
Ellen ngIf: comment.data.author.employee Works at ChefSteps end ngIf: comment.data.author.employee ngIf: comment.data.author.jouleAmbassador ngIf: comment.data.parentCommentId && comment.data.parentCommentAuthor 9 mo ago

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Hi Pablo, thank you for your question. Yes, it is possible that if the brine is too acidic when nitrate is being added, you run the risk of producing a gas that is dangerous to inhale. You'll need to make sure the pH is 4.8 or above. If the Coca Cola is the only thing in the brine, it will be too acidic.

Are you suggesting Ellen just picked a number out of the air with the distinct possibility of ruining her reputation ???   You'll have to write to Ellen and request her source of the information....   

For press inquiries: [email protected]
For general inquiries: [email protected]
For customer service: [email protected]
Dave - You are basing your warning on information based upon this community post. I will let you verify your own quoted source.
 
I don't think that we are going to confirm or otherwise the question about adding acid into a brine quickly but maybe we can confirm whether gas is liberated when neat acid comes in direct contact with the curing salts. In order to do this I have just performed a quick visible test with some cure#1, cure #2 and plain salt (about 10g of each) with neat vinegar, 10% vinegar and liquid smoke.




Short videos of what happened to follow. With the neat vinegar there was a slight reaction with the cure#1 and 2 and a seemingly stronger reaction with the liquid smoke. There was no visible reaction with the plain salt. This seems to confirm the that a reaction does take place between neat vinegar and liquid smoke and the cure salts - which is potentially breaking down the Nitrite/Nitrate.. The reaction was gentle though and there was no obvious evidence of toxic quantities of gas being released.

The 10% vinegar on the other hand showed no visible signs of a reaction.
 
Somebody took the time to figure out something about acid in nitrite..  Personally, it's worth paying heed to statements like that.... 

I don't have to reinvent the wheel over everything I read, just stuff that piques my interest .. 

What is surprising....   all the times I have read the FSIS handbook on curing meats, I don't recall anything pertaining to acid in cure....
 
The reaction was gentle though and there was no obvious evidence of toxic quantities of gas being released.

Excellent qualitative lab experiment....   now we know it's safe to add acid to nitrite....  
 
Dave - please be civil. I am trying to confirm at least part of the statements that you cited in your original post. I said that this was a quick visible test.

Edited to remove quantitative experiment reference - sorry Dave.
 
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Dave - please be civil. I am trying to confirm at least part of the statements that you cited in your original post. I said that this was a quick visible test and did not claim that it was in any way quantitative.
Again you didn't read my post.....   Big difference !!!!!!!!!  ....    At lest read what I write before you criticize.....

Excellent qualitative lab experiment....   now we know it's safe to add acid to nitrite....  

OK, I'm done commenting on this thread.....  have at it....    BYE !!!!
 
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We should warn all members not to add vinegar to their coleslaw . We love lettuce/radish salads in our family. with plenty of apple cider vinegar...phew: we could have chocked on toxic gases eating it (or burping it?). No more.
 
As promised here is a short(?) video showing the visual effects of adding vinegar and liquid smoke directly to curing salts in the form of cure#1 and cure#2
  1. Firstly neat vinegar on plain table salt. - No reaction visible
  2. Neat vinegar on cure #1 and #2 - No immediate visible reaction however after about a minute small bubbles were visible in both mixtures. This is an indication that the vinegar is reacting with the Nitrite/Nitrate and so potentially reducing the amount available in the cure
  3. Liquid smoke with cure#1 and cure #2. Immediately small bubbles form causing a froth to appear on the surface of the liquid. This is an indication that the liquid smoke is reacting with the curing salts
  4. 10% vinegar on cure #1 and cure #2. No reaction apparent even after 5 minutes. This does not mean that the vinegar isn't reacting with the curing salts but it not to the extent that it is releasing visible amounts of gas
  5. Liquid smoke on table salt - no visible reaction
This quick experiment does help support the recommendation that "strong" acids, including liquid smoke, should not be added directly to the curing salts in the form of Cure#1 and Cure #2. It does however not directly support the claim that doing so will release toxic levels of NO gas under these conditions - and there was no provision to identify what the gas released actually was. Adding the acids to a pure sample of Nitrate or Nitrite may lead to a very different situation though.

Adding the dilute acid to the cures did not result in a visible reaction and no gas appeared to be released. This does not mean that there was no reaction taking place though.



I have tried to help support some of the statements made in the original post however the main statement that you should "Never add acidic ingredients to a curing brine" is still unsubstantiated and so is the implication that doing so will result in toxic levels of Nitric Oxide being produced.

Dave, I will now leave you to to continue your source validation and I hope that more concrete information on this subject is available soon.
 
 [h2]What is ChefSteps?[/h2]
ChefSteps believes cooking makes us better people—seriously. Founded in 2012, we’re a Seattle-based food and technology company on a mission to help people cook smarter. Chefsteps.com and its companion app are designed to inspire creativity and encourage experimentation through high-quality interactive content, techniques, tools, and resources.

The ChefSteps team is made up of 50+ voices—chefs, scientists, photographers, writers, and engineers—and we all come to work each day with one thing in mind: helping you cook confidently. (We call this “cooking smarter.”) Why? Because the more you know about cooking, the better you get at it. And the better you get at it, the more fun it is. We think cooking and eating together makes us better humans, and we want to share that belief with the world.
Thanks Dave. I am aware of Chefsteps as I have been a Chefsteps member for quite a while. I have got a lot of very good information from them in the past but just because they are good with food it does not mean that they are also curing experts. I have posted up on their forum to see if we can get more information regarding the pH 4.8 figure and I have also e-mailed. Hopefully they will respond soon.

In the meantime, if we assume that what they say is accurate about the minimum safe pH of a brine being 4.8 is correct then I wanted to test how much Coke (other colas are available) could be added to a brine for it to be within this limit. I first measured the pH of my tap water - it was pH 7.2. I then measured the pH of neat coke and added successive glasses of water to dilute it and then measured the resulting pH.


Limitations of this experiment: This was bucket chemistry and I was using a glass filled to the brim as a measure. I was using Diet Coke (as that was all I had) and I was using water and not brine. When I get some standard coke I will repeat the experiment using brine
CokeWater  pH%Coke
         
10  2.8100.00
11  3.750.00
12  4.533.33
13  4.925.00
14  5.220.00
15  5.316.67
16  5.414.29
17  5.512.50
18  5.611.11
19  5.710.00
110  5.79.09

From this quick experiment it appears that you can go up to a 25% solution of (Diet) Coke before the pH drops below 4.8 - which according to Ellen at Chefsteps would be an acceptable pH for a brine.

When I try with the full Coke and Brine I will repeat the experiment with Vinegar and also Ascorbate to give an indication oh how much of each can be added to a brine for it to have a pH that remains above 4.8

We need to be clear at this point though that we still have no credible evidence to support (or otherwise) the 4.8 value but hopefully Ellen will be able to provide this soon.
 
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Nitric Oxide can cause health problems. However, it has also been approved for use at doses of inhalation gas for NEW BORN Babies at 40ppm for Pulmonary Vasodilation. Frankly I think we have little to worry about as even 200ppm Sodium Nitrite in 1Gallon of Brine is very Dilute and will make nowhere near the FDA Approved 40ppm Nitric Acid Gas and definately not Clinical Toxicity of 80ppm!

Now it has been 30 years since my Advanced Chemistry Class and have no desire to do the math to find the Exact amount of Gas that will be generated from 200ppm Nitrite in 3785.41g of water and adding 354.88g Cola at a pH of 2.52...

Just an educated wild ass guess...While adding Cola or Acid of any kind to 100 or 1000 gallons of Curing Brine in an insufficiently ventilated, 120sqft Cold Room used to inject Hams, May be a Very Bad Idea!  I highly doubt there is anything to worry about, Nitric Acid wise, adding Cola to ONE Gallon of Pops Brine.  

Now getting back to Acid or Cola inactivating Sodium Nitrite? That is enough reason to not do it! The rest is arguing a moot point, Unless there are any Chemists here, who can show a TOXIC amount of Nitric Oxide, 80ppm, will come from 1 Gallon of 200ppm Brine...JJ
th_dunno-1%5B1%5D.gif


Taken from a Trusted Medical Journal...http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/59/1/5.full
[h3]Pulmonary Vasodilation[/h3]
The primary demonstrated clinical indication for inhaled nitric oxide is hypoxic respiratory failure associated with persistent pulmonary hypertension of the newborn (PPHN). In 1992, Roberts et al. and Kinsella et al. reported that inhaled nitric oxide produced rapid and significant increases in oxygenation in term and near-term infants with PPHN, without detectable toxicity. In late 1999, positive findings in several randomized clinical trials led the Food and Drug Administration to approve inhaled nitric oxide for open-label use in these patients (Davidson et al., 1998Day et al., 1996The Neonatal Inhaled Nitric Oxide Study Group, 1997Roberts et al., 1997Wessel et al., 1997). A recent meta-analysis has also confirmed the clinical efficacy of inhaled nitric oxide for the treatment of PPHN (Finer and Barrington, 2000). Low doses of inhaled nitric oxide have been reported to be clinically effective, and most current dosing recommendations do not exceed 40 ppm. At this dose, there is little measurable short-term toxicity. Indeed, it is noteworthy that in the large randomized trials of inhaled nitric oxide, major clinical toxicity (e.g., methemoglobinemia) was observed only at doses ≥ 80 ppm (Davidson et al., 1998Wessel et al., 1997). However, even low doses of inhaled nitric oxide may exert toxicity at the cellular level, potentially leading to long-term pulmonary complications. In this regard, nitrotyrosine residues have been detected in the lungs after 10 days of life in 2 of 12 infants who required prolonged ventilation and were treated with nitric oxide (up to 20 ppm) for 1–4 days (Hallman et al., 1998). These findings suggest that endogenous nitric oxide can alter proteins in the lung. Adverse outcomes have also been observed at clinical doses during weaning from nitric oxide, since rapid withdrawal can result in severe rebound pulmonary vasospasm (Atz et al., 1996Cueto et al., 1997). 
Not to beat a dead horse (or a dead mea†..) but nitric oxide is essential for the boy side of the process by which we all came to be. Vasodilation. I remember reading this a while back. I'll not bother to explicate, this is a cooking/curing/smoking forum, after all. Just posting this for a chuckle.

I think soda pop is poison, with the HFCS being a metabolic disruptor of the first order. The cliché "beer gut" should soon become "pop belly," but I know it tastes yummy. Dave's original point, spot on in my opinion. I haven't drunk a soda pop in years. No point in putting it in my cure brine that I can see.

Thank you for your service and selflessness, Dave!

John
 
 
Not to beat a dead horse (or a dead mea†..) but nitric oxide is essential for the boy side of the process by which we all came to be. Vasodilation. I remember reading this a while back. I'll not bother to explicate, this is a cooking/curing/smoking forum, after all. Just posting this for a chuckle.

I think soda pop is poison, with the HFCS being a metabolic disruptor of the first order. The cliché "beer gut" should soon become "pop belly," but I know it tastes yummy. Dave's original point, spot on in my opinion. I haven't drunk a soda pop in years. No point in putting it in my cure brine that I can see.

Thank you for your service and selflessness, Dave!

John
Interestingly, Coke, Root Beer, Ginger Ale and Dr.Pepper...Were all created as Health Drinks, with cane sugar, and were not an issue of concern for some 100 years. Nothing Poisonous about them... Regardless, If the percapita consuption of soda remained the same as today but it was made with Premium HONEY...The net health effects would be the same. Fructose is Fructose regardless of the Plant Source, be it Corn or Clover Flower nectar...Drinking 2-4 liters of Soda a day regardless of what it is sweetened with is going to cause some form of Metabolic Disruption...JJ
 
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